New electric mountain bike frame by Phasor Cycles

[Alan B]

They already answered 1 and 2 earlier. Cost and effort too high with CF at this time for their setup.

Question 3 is the more interesting one. Hopefully they have a prototype soon to answer it.

[deVries]

The frame is constructed of TIG welded chromoly that has been precision waterjet-cut, making a capable light weight and versatile frame. It has been designed to hold the batteries low and centralized.

1) Please explain why you switched from light weight carbon fiber composite to heavy Crmoly?

2) Did the carbon fiber prototype have any issues in the design, construction, or durability in field testing to decide not to use carbon fiber or some other composite materials?

3) What is the total weight difference between these two bikes when using same weight components & parts using Crmoly vs Carbon Fiber?

Look forward to the testing & final design/weight before I can commit.

Thanks!

Question 3 is the more interesting one. Hopefully they have a prototype soon to answer it.

I agree that question 3 is important, but neither danimal or dpearce gave answers to 1 & 2 that I can find in this thread or elsewhere.

I hope for specific answers to all 3 questions in this thread from dpearce and/or danimal.

[dpearce]

Danimal, Any rough idea when you will have these in production? And do you have a finalized design yet?
Also, will you offer them without the swing arm? Or build a custom swing arm? The wheel I have in mind won't fit a standard swing arm

We are shooting to be production ready by Jan. - Feb 2012, pending field testing. This means we plan to start building them as they are ordered around this time.

Have you investigated shipping costs yet?

We will be using UPS to ship, you can get an estimate from their shipping calculator, coming from zip 90278. The package will be approximately 35 lbs, that is a liberal estimation.

1) Please explain why you switched from light weight carbon fiber composite to heavy Crmoly?

2) Did the carbon fiber prototype have any issues in the design, construction, or durability in field testing?

3) What is the total weight difference between these two bikes when using same weight components & parts using Crmoly vs Carbon Fiber?

1) The main reasons we switched from Carbon Fiber to Chromoly, as mentioned by Alan B are cost and labor. Expensive material, expensive and time consuming to manufacture. Lots of one off parts. Harder to repair. More complicated to scale up production. Relative to working with steel, it's just kind of a PITA in my opinion. We see the DIY market wanting something cheaper, and easier to customize (weld on) even if it is at the expense of weight.

2) Issues in the design, not really except a clearance issue with the rear tire / rear shock that luckily was an easy fix. The construction went smoothly, albeit time consuming and messy. As for durability in testing, There was minor surface cracking around one of the swingarm pivot mounts in the frame, but it is still strong and structurally sound, nothing that would make me hold back on anything for fear that it would break. The carbon fiber is very strong, but one good tumble into some rocks could destroy the frame, and it wouldn't be easy to repair. The geometry has been revised, to give more leg extension for pedaling, a lower seat height, and a more slack head tube angle. We destroyed some rims jumping out of a 6 set of stairs, went through a one way bearing from the older generation BMC motors, broke off the derailer. Those are the only issues we have had with the bike so far, and it has taken some beatings, including tumbling down a steep hill for about 100 feet (luckily I didn't go with it haha). One of the dropouts in the aluminum swingarm are getting a little thrashed, since after welding the derailer mount back on the aluminum is back to soft 'O' condition in that area from the heat of welding and not re-heat treating.

3) The total weight of the CF frame was 9.0lbs, and the swingarm was around 3lbs I think so about 14lbs alltogether. The Chromoly frame is expected to be around 16-20lbs with the swingarm. However it is designed to use mountain bike suspension, which all together is about 18lbs lighter than the heavy motorcycle suspension used before. The Carbon Fiber Prototype was 90lbs with a 72V, 10A*hr battery, and BMC motor. Using the same battery / motor in the new model would end up around (90 + 7 - 18)lbs = ~79 lbs, but since we are using more batteries in this test model it will probably end up around 90lbs.

We are getting very close to building this first frame out of the new jig, we hope to have some pictures of a physical frame for you guys soon here..

[chroot]

Make sense, Hope I have enough money by time your products release to public and I would like get one for myself. Hope it able let me run 100v 20Ah or 30Ah if it permit room hold the LiPo batteries.

Looking forward hear the test pending. Don't forget take some video and We would love see it.

[deVries]

Thanks for the very detailed answers to my questions 1, 2, 3 above. Excellent response & info.

However it is designed to use mountain bike suspension, which all together is about 18lbs lighter than the heavy motorcycle suspension used before.

By doing this you seem to come to about the same weight as the Carbon Fiber frame that has heavier motorcycle parts.

1) Will the durability still be there using Mountain Bike components vs Motorcycle grade components? Any downsides to doing this where there might be some limitations that the motorcycle components could handle but the mountain bike components will limit or prevent? Higher cost for mountain bike parts vs motorcycle?

2) Any Pros/Cons or trade-offs worth mentioning beyond the weight savings by using mountain bike parts vs the motorcycle ones? Will you be heat treating the finished CrMoly frames after welding for "stress relief" too?

3) Are you doing the actual manufacturing yourselves, or are you contracting this out to a fabricator?

I think this is an excellent opportunity to fill a real need for DIY eBike builders, so I wish you the best in actually completing many, many frames & go on to producing beyond the ES hobby level into a real business venture.

Again, thanks for your detailed explanations. If your CrMoly prototype proves out to meet your expectations & it's well documented here on ES, then I think many of us will want to order this including myself. I really want to see what results you get with the prototype before I can commit to ordering, so I hope you succeed in the meantime.

[danimal]

well get exited... we sure are! The first frame is coming out of the jig soon. We received the laser cut 4130 frame panels earlier this week and have begun the first production frame.

We plan on testing this frame to it's limits and path-finding the integration of batteries, electronics, and various other things. Once we are satisfied we will begin production of more frames that will be available for sale or custom builds.

Below are some pictures:



laser cut panels


swingarm jig and laser cut panels (sorry blurry)


frame tack welded in jig


frame welding nearing completion


small shop (sorry messy)

[Philistine]

I think there must be a rock in my pocket....

That is looking awesome.

I wonder if I can justify a third ebike to my wife....

[motorino magnet]

"Give her what she wants and she will give you what you want".

Thought you knew that already to get the first two.

Cheers-working on mine tonight

[GCinDC]

wow. looks awesome! nice work. i was wondering how you were going to get those curves...

are you tempted to add any internal braces, esp near steer tube and shock mounts? have you modelled the stresses it'll take?

what do you expect the weight will be at this point?

[Deutch420]

Lookin good. Keep it up!

[deVries]

well get exited... we sure are! The first frame is coming out of the jig soon. We received the laser cut 4130 frame panels earlier this week and have begun the first production frame.

Nice work. Show us how you'll do the cross-bracing or skeleton supports w/pics, when you get there.

Will the open slots have side covers, so it sort of looks solid like your original design?

Very exciting to see your frame take form...

[bzhwindtalker]

Amazing! this looks like a serious E-mtb frame!

[Drunkskunk]

I think I just stoped working on my own frame ...

Whats the head tube length?
Will you be willing to sell them without the swing arm?

[dpearce]

Here it is, emerging in real life what what once just a computerized pipe dream.
We will be testing this thing out very soon.. I hope to start assembling this one this weekend.
We had to get the dropouts cut out a second time to make sure they fit just right, the nice thing about laser cutting is that it hardens the surface of the dropouts where the axle sits. Not so nice for your tools if you have to drill or cut through the edges. They fit nicely, even if your axle nuts rattle off the wheel will stay on the bike and the axle will not spin.



Corner weld requires little finishing to be smooth


Swingarm and beefy dropouts


Still have to put it back in the jig to add the shock tabs


Frame internal gusset


Frame



We should have some pictures soon of a complete bike..keep an eye out. We are also planning on some rigorous testing at some of the premier Southern California trails. Here's a nice bodyplant which gives you an idea of what we expect this to be put through.


Drunkskunk, let me know what your requirements are for your swingarm and I can let you know if it will fit. Head tube length is 4 15/16" ~ 4.94"

[Hyena]

Great to see some progress and that the first one is nearly done. I'm interested to see the bare weight all said and done.
Nice work on the dropouts.

Cool vid, I don't think I'd be keen to take that gully 18 seconds in! But I suppose it's the landing you're going to stuff up if anything...
Always wear a helmet and gloves Dave

[Alan B]

Nice dropouts.

Axles come in varying diameters. The flats are pretty much standard at 10mm but the common diameters are 12, 14 and 16 mm.

How do you plan to accomodate this? Looks like making three sizes of the axle spacer block would be easy.

[Tench]

I have not read the whole thread so it may have been mentioned before but it seems to me that the frame will have the same problem as other bikes of similar design in that it wont have very good (inadequate) steering lock, it needs to have a short parralel narrow section behind the head stock to allow for fork clearance when used with triple clamp forks.

Like the drop outs though!

Simon.

[kfong]

Nice, I like the new setup. Looks like plenty of room for batteries. Are you going to also sell just the frame and swing arm for some of us die hard DIY who already have good setups but might go for a frame upgrade? I look forward to the test results. Is the frame geometry closer to a DJ style, all mountain and less DH style? What's the head angle and wheel sizes planned for this geometry? How has the BMC been holding up for you. I'm still happy with mine after 3 years of trail riding.

[dpearce]

Kfong, most of your questions can be answered here

http://www.phasorcycles.com

The BMC motor is still holding up, although one of the batteries on that bike is out of commission while the BMS is being replaced, hope to have it running again soon with this one.

The frame weighs in at 11.5lbs, and 15.2lbs with swingarm, or about 3 lbs heavier than the carbon fiber frame / aluminum swingarm

Just a couple more small things to weld before it can be assembled, disassembled, painted, reassembled, and finally ridden!

[ohzee]

Looking real good.

[Deutch420]

Looks great. What color scheme are you going with?

Any pictures with the side panals on? Assuming there will be side panals..

Also, not trying to copy the bomber but·; is there a chance u could make a cutout (on the top of the frame ) for the buttons and screen of the CA? This way we can mount them internally wile maintaining a good view of the screen? Maybe by request only. something like this: (on my tablet, so i had to use paint.. )

phasor2.jpg (88.13 KiB) Viewed 1441 times

[kfong]

Good to know your motor is handling your abuse. I'm hard on mine but not at the voltage levels you were running at.

How about detailed photos of the swing arm and frame bearing. Worried that there isn't enough supporting structure in that area. The rest looks great.

[Whiplash]

Awesome so far! I can't wait to see it all done!! Hurry up! LOL!

By the way, maybe I missed it, what is the cost looking like for the bare frame un-painted?? ------- EDIT: Found it thanks!-----


This thing and a Cro-Motor with around 44.4V and like 35AH would be an AWESOME high speed trail machine!!

[danimal]

This is from earlier this week. The components all fit great and now it is off to powder coating.

"What color scheme are you going with?"
"Any pictures with the side panals on?"
"is there a chance u could make a cutout (on the top of the frame ) for the buttons and screen of the CA?"

We are going with an antifreeze green powder coating, Then we will also post some photos of the panels and bottom bracket details (for Kfong)!

The new cycle analyst (bigger screen) does not fit in the width of this frame. If you still have an older version CA it will fit, and we can discuss cut-outs.

[o00scorpion00o]

Awesome so far! I can't wait to see it all done!! Hurry up! LOL!

By the way, maybe I missed it, what is the cost looking like for the bare frame un-painted?? ------- EDIT: Found it thanks!-----


This thing and a Cro-Motor with around 44.4V and like 35AH would be an AWESOME high speed trail machine!!

Cromotor fast on 44 volts ?