Trade war USA vs China

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Trade war USA vs China

Post by lester12483 » Jun 01, 2012 2:24 pm

We have nothing to lose from a trade war. We can make green technology ourselves in the US. Im glad this "cheating" is finally being addressed. I am all for fair trade.

The U.S. Commerce Department announced in mid-May that new tariffs on Chinese solar cells and modules will be a lot higher than originally expected – with a rate of about 30% or more – to protect U.S. industry from "allegedly subsidized" components being sold in the country at lower than fair market value.

While it's a preliminary ruling based on earlier findings from the U.S. Trade Commission (a final ruling is expected later this year), China has threatened to respond with counter-tariffs on American makers of related products, according to Scientific American.


http://www.smartgridnews.com/artman/pub ... -4837.html

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plu ... hits-hard/


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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 2:39 pm

I am all for free market. If they can make it better and cheaper, that's better for the consumer.
The problem is when the govt comes in and starts making regulations, starts subsidizing things, and doing other nasty stuff.

But Chinese subsidies/dumping ultimately hurts them, and benefits the consumer over here in the USA.

Tarriffs are theft by the govt, to favor certain local industries. Who benefits? the govt, who gets to take money away from you, by force. And the companies, who have eliminated their competition not by providing a better or cheaper product, but by conspiring with the govt. to steal from you when they buy their competitor's product.

Who defines what fair trade is? whoever fills the politicians' pockets quicker to get favors!
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 2:46 pm

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by lester12483 » Jun 01, 2012 2:51 pm

I am for free trade, but it has to be fair trade.

Fair trade is not manipulating your currency, illegal dumping, and slave wages.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 3:04 pm

lester12483 wrote:I am for free trade, but it has to be fair trade.

Fair trade is not manipulating your currency, illegal dumping, and slave wages.
You can't have both. Doesn't work out in real life.

Those people who work for slave wages do so because it beats working on a farm or starving. They chose those jobs out of their own free will. They stay in their country and work in those conditions

America was in the same position. Look up our mining and early industrial history; Child labor, unsafe conditions, disease, death, low pay, and so forth. But people came to America and stayed here because it was better than where they came from.

Now we decided that was not a good deal for us, so we sent that work back.

As for manipulating your currency and dumping... that's wrong, but who does it benefit? us! It's their problem if their govt. wants to sell things below cost. They decided that was right for them, so let them do it.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by lester12483 » Jun 01, 2012 3:28 pm

So your ok with millions of American job losses due to the Chinese government manipulating their currency to give their companies an advantage ?

66,000 factories in the US closed in the last decade, where do you think they went?
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by Jeremy Harris » Jun 01, 2012 3:42 pm

Grand sentiments, but the whole world is now wholly dependent on China, and has been for some time.
Virtually all our high tech goods come from China or contain key components only made in China.
99% of all ebike parts come from China; for example there are very few lithium ebike cells manufactured outside China, Taiwan or Korea.
Like it or not, China and the Far East have a grip on the world that we cannot shake free, even if we could accept the massive cost increases in virtually all the goods we buy.
Our greed, in wanting cheap goods and having no morals when it comes to the human rights of the countries where those goods come from has created this situation. We in the west have absolutely no one to blame but ourselves for this situation by being so keen to buy and sell Chinese made goods - the Chinese are only taking advantage of the situation we've presented them on a plate.
Please ask questions on the forum, rather than by PM, as it helps others and you'll get a better range of answers.

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by pwbset » Jun 01, 2012 4:01 pm

Jeremy Harris wrote:We in the west have absolutely no one to blame but ourselves for this situation
x2

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by flathill » Jun 01, 2012 4:28 pm

neptronix wrote: But Chinese subsidies/dumping ultimately hurts them, and benefits the consumer over here in the USA.
Short term thinking...you probably shop at walmart

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 4:29 pm

pwbset wrote:
Jeremy Harris wrote:We in the west have absolutely no one to blame but ourselves for this situation
x2
x4

If you want to win against China in manufacturing, cull almost all the environmental laws we have here, lower people's cost of living to a tenth of what it is now, cut 2/3rds of our labor laws out, get rid of unions, remove the concept of intellectual property, take the concept of lawyers and liability mostly out of the picture, then we can compete.

You can tarriff and tax and steal as much money away from the public and put it in govt. coffers as much you want but that is basically like trying to put a mirror polish on a turd.

You will not win against China. The only companies here in the USA that are really making money make everything in China and other parts of Asia. Immigrants are voting with their feet and moving to China now because there is work there. I know people who are moving from America to China now. America is no longer a land of opportunity.

Same thing happened to most english speaking parts of Europe. They demanded too high of standards and it became too expensive to get anything made there. America was in China's position in the early 1900's.

Manufacturing will go where it is freest, least difficult, and least expensive. That place right now is China, so deal with it. Otherwise you are going to waste billions of tax dollars subsidizing and losing money on idiotic companies who can't get things done. Protectionism like that is a losing proposition. Just ask Japan how things have worked out for them. Japan is slowly starting to use China to produce everything after wasting their taxpayer $ trying to compete with China for decades.

Free trade is simple, has it's own dynamics, and works well.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 4:30 pm

flathill wrote:
neptronix wrote: But Chinese subsidies/dumping ultimately hurts them, and benefits the consumer over here in the USA.
Short term thinking...you probably shop at walmart
No, i shop at Costco. I buy American at every chance i can.
You're probably using a computer built in China. Oh wait, we all are :mrgreen:
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by flathill » Jun 01, 2012 4:41 pm

pwbset wrote:
Jeremy Harris wrote:We in the west have absolutely no one to blame but ourselves for this situation
x2
Yeah right. China has played this game before.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

"China seeks not merely competitive advantage, but absolute advantage. In other words, China’s strategy is to win in virtually all industries, especially advanced technology products and services. One may argue that all countries do this and assert it is the essence of competition. But China’s policies represent a departure from traditional competition and international trade norms. Autarky, not trade, defines China’s goal. As such China’s economic strategy consists of two main objectives: 1) develop and support all industries that can expand exports, especially higher value-added ones, and reduce imports; 2) and do this in a way that ensures that Chinese-owned firms win. It is time for policymakers in the United States and other countries to begin responding to today’s reality for Chinese mercantilism represents a fundamental threat to not only the U.S. economy, but to the entire system of market and rules-based globalization."

http://www2.itif.org/2012-enough-is-enough-pp.pdf

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by flathill » Jun 01, 2012 5:01 pm

neptronix wrote:
flathill wrote:
neptronix wrote: But Chinese subsidies/dumping ultimately hurts them, and benefits the consumer over here in the USA.
Short term thinking...you probably shop at walmart
No, i shop at Costco. I buy American at every chance i can.
You're probably using a computer built in China. Oh wait, we all are :mrgreen:
Speaking of which...here is a radiation hardened chip with the latest anti-IP-theft security measures that went down on the Boeing drone in Iran. Iran is now working with China on "reverse engineering" the FPGAs in the drone.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/Silicon_scan_draft.pdf

Note they specifically chose this chip because it was advertised to military markets as having the highest security but was made in China :roll:

Iran claims to have reverse-engineered US spy drone
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ap ... -spy-drone

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by lester12483 » Jun 01, 2012 5:20 pm

Dont get me wrong. I am not blaming the Chinese communist government for anything. They will do what is their best interests. The communist party wants full employment for their people so they can stay in power.

I blame our own politicians for not doing anything to stop China's currency cheating when they were handed the chance. You can see where their loyalties are.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65090.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/27/us ... nipulator/
http://americanmanufacturing.org/blog/l ... tatement-0
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 5:20 pm

flathill wrote:Speaking of which...here is a radiation hardened chip with the latest anti-IP-theft security measures that went down on the Boeing drone in Iran. Iran is now working with China on "reverse engineering" the FPGAs in the drone.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/Silicon_scan_draft.pdf

Note they specifically chose this chip because it was advertised to military markets as having the highest security but was made in China :roll:

Iran claims to have reverse-engineered US spy drone
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ap ... -spy-drone
Wow! my country is not JUST a bully who murders thousands of innocent people a year, but my country is also idiotic.

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... illed?lite

Look at this... we killed 4 suspected militants, and 6 innocent people as they were praying in their mosque.

Our tax dollars at work.. murdering.. stunting free trade.. stunting our industry.. stealing.. and using the constitution as an ass wiping tool.. maybe it will get so bad i can claim political refugee status and immigrate to a real country.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 5:26 pm

lester12483 wrote:Dont get me wrong. I am not blaming the Chinese communist government for anything. They will do what is their best interests. The communist party wants full employment for their people so they can stay in power.

I blame Barack Obama, Tim Geithner, and John Boehner for not doing anything to stop China's currency cheating when they were handed the chance. You can see where their loyalties are. It's disgusting in my opinion and almost treasonous.
Meanwhile, our current leader wants a bigger govt. and more bells, whistles, and welfare.. but somehow the dems & reps stay in power, and balance themselves out like a dirty alternating current source.

And as to who to blame? You could trace things all the way back to Bill Clinton, maybe even Bush Sr. if you looked hard enough.

But the fact of the matter is that we can't compete anyway. China is only cheating themselves by manipulating their currency. All the other factors i mentioned are so much larger / more significant as to why they have won over our manufacturing.

When you can get sued out of existance over a patent, technicality, or injured worker, who really wants to start a business here.. or even more dangerous.. do manufacturing?

I know a guy who runs a machine shop who had to go bankrupt because a worker faked an injury and had the right lawyer. Dude shut his operation down and fired 20 people in a day. It took him 3 years to get the gumption to start another business. I still wonder why he got back into business running a machine shop again.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by lester12483 » Jun 01, 2012 5:32 pm

I disagree, they have NOT won over our manufacturing. They have a temporary advantage by cheating. We still have the knowledge, resources, and a free thinking society.

We could have our empty factories up and humming again in no time if we really had to.

I do agree with you we need to be more business friendly. and stop frivilous lawsuits. That is what insurance is for my friend.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by neptronix » Jun 01, 2012 5:44 pm

lester12483 wrote:I disagree, they have NOT won over our manufacturing. They have a temporary advantage by cheating. We still have the knowledge, resources, and a free thinking society.

We could have our empty factories up and humming again in no time if we really had to.

I do agree with you we need to be more business friendly. and stop frivilous lawsuits. That is what insurance is for my friend.
We still make some things, half of it is because of govt. contracts. But in reality you are just putting a lot of shit together from Chinese parts most of the time. They have a huge edge and you can't deny that.

Every govt. plays a game of manipulation, subsidy, etc. We cheat just as well. When you manipulate your own currency, you ultimately lose.

You shouldn't have to have all sorts of insurance. That's a big part of what makes manufacturing too expensive here. It is the govt. and the system of laws they invented that have created these problems.

I wonder if the big corps that started the outsourcing trend really tried to lobby the govt. for better business conditions before making that choice, or just moved their work straight to China in protest. One thing is really clear though... the problem is our govt and our system.

We could compete on our own merits if we didn't have a dozen handicaps.

Back to panels though.... we need them cheap to get off imported fossil fuels, and i think this tarriff is shooting ourselves in the foot.
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by Joseph C. » Jun 01, 2012 6:02 pm

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by Punx0r » Jun 01, 2012 6:28 pm

I don't want to get embroiled in politics, but it's not all doom-and-gloom over the Far East ;)

China has achieved impressive growth in the last 10 years (10% per year IIRC), but I really doubt it's sustainable. Workers are demanding ever higher wages and better working conditions, the people are becoming more aspirational and, frankly, more like the west. They'll soon demand democracy, mod-cons, welfare, and all the other expensive trappings ;)

I keep hearing of examples of UK companies moving production from China back to the UK because, all things considered, it's no longer saving them money.

Also, whilst the Far East has excelled in manufacturing basic goods, the future is abandoning that which has become common technology and embrace new, high technologies. The West still leads in most (all?) cutting edge fields. As long as this is maintained and properly invested in, things should be ok. Designing and selling is where the money is, manufacturer's scrape a few percent.

You can see the China trying to address this gap by pushing education. See the Western universities setting up China campuses?

Yale, Harvard, MIT, Cambridge, Oxford is still where you go for the world's best education!

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by Joseph C. » Jun 02, 2012 6:33 pm

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by Jason27 » Jun 03, 2012 3:16 am

Where is that ev assemble guy from china michael. I wonder what his view is on this
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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by deVries » Jun 03, 2012 7:36 am

Joseph C. wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... tml?via=mr

And your video reference: China vs USA Empires at War 2012
Predating all this recent "Cold War" rhetoric, which started from the mid 1990's with China, which our Military Industrial Complex MIC just loves these fear-flames to TAX Americans effortlessly, it is Nixon & Henry Kissinger that made a strategic pact with China to balance off the USSR.

That pact also added the concept of so called "Free Trade" in the 1990's, so as to make the world interdependent upon trade with each other, and China was chosen to be our strategic partner to fulfill this long-range plan. Many nations, including the USA, are now completely dependent on trading with China. For better, not worse, all Americans should realize it's better to be best friends with your trading partner and avoid AT ALL COSTS the MIC nationalistic militaristic TAXES that kill healthy relationships & good living for the citizens of BOTH nations. Cold Wars are Evil and tend to lead to Hot Wars and DEFINITELY cause much lower standards of living for those involved except the MIC !!! :evil:

We should regard the Chinese people fundamentally as our best trading partner for the next several decades. We need to strengthen our own manufacturing base ourselves, and we need to distribute wages & taxes to increase the middle class & open education in technical areas at very low cost to rebuild the middle class in the USA. Beginning with Ronald Reagan AND every President since then we have done just the opposite!!! Now our middle class has disappeared, almost, and we are foolishly blaming the Chinese for this BS. The truth is there is waayyy too much concentrated wealth in this country, and most of that wealth was/is created by "stealing" from the middle class & increasing the poor using tax laws and "legalized" financial fraud to increase the extreme wealth of those earning well over $150,000 per year especially for Wall Street & Banking interests. We've become THEIR JUNKIE druggies hooked on the fiat they create to give you & me "paper wealth" while real jobs/work disappears. IT IS A FALSE ECONOMY.

Wall Street & the changed banking laws accelerated this process to the extreme at the end of the 1990's, but this whole false economy ideology began with Greenspan in the 1980's & *the insane* idea of trickle down economics and cutting taxes for the wealthy. Back then Wall Street accounted for less than 20% of our economy; now it accounts for more than 60%.

WHY IS THAT ??? :idea: :?:

The correct answer has nothing to do with the Chinese or "Free Trade". (Which we know is *not* Fair Trade.)

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by whatever » Jun 03, 2012 9:40 am

dont forget that once a company is set up in china with foreign technology, the chinese eventually take that technology and the investors who set it up loose out............a123 for example, thats how it works over there. How they have gotten away with it for the last 30 years is mind boggling.

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Re: Trade war USA vs China

Post by Kingfish » Jun 05, 2012 12:09 pm

There has to be an economic incentive to produce domestically. In one sense, the Republicans are correct about reducing government oversight… the problem is how they want to do which often leads to gutting or cutting oversight altogether. The Democrats don’t seem to want to give an inch in compromise and that’s very unprogressive and sad.

Look at the mining to see an unbalanced process: Mining pays little in taxes (due to archaic legislation), yet is constrained by ecologic agents in and out of the government (due to band-aid legislation). What’s needed is an overhaul that allows for quicker lease processing (whether approving or not), better revenue sharing, and reduction in litigation: A balance of the best interests. Without an ample supply of raw material, we can’t get the refining process and sophisticated manufacturing going, and labor back to work.

The same can be said with Organized Labor; generally it’s top-heavy and unwilling to take cuts like many of the rest of us. Unions are strong where I live; Boeing in Washington State for example. But they wield so much power that it’s stifling: Machinists often strike, disrupting production. Is it any wonder why Boeing opened up production in Charlotte? No union. By the same token, there is no union for Software Developers; we’ve been taking it in the shorts since the bubble burst in 1999 and the subsequent flood of H1-B visas or outsourcing abroad. In my State, people in software are paid a flat-rate regardless of overtime hours worked. That’s pretty unique legislation! Is it fair? That’s cutting the cake both ways in favor of Industry for greatest profit. So, the Unionized Labor seems greedy, and the un-Unionized Labor is getting screwed royally… the exception being the Teacher’s Union which seems like they’re always getting screwed. :roll:

The one glimmer of hope, the one silver lining about China sucking up our former production and crippling our ability to export is that we’ve somehow planted the seed of middle-class development over there. China sure seems to be going at great speed to catch up with us. Maybe in 10 or 20 years when we’re broke and starving, the trend will reverse. Personally, I’m not holding my breath.

I have zero problem slapping tariffs on product-dumping countries. Gosh, that seems like anti-FTA, but ya know… if they can’t play fair…

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