AllCell Technologies Getting Into EV Automotive Market

SamTexas

1 MW
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
2,712
Location
Houston, Texas
That's a dumb move. The automobile market employs real engineers capable of differentiating facts from fantasies. Better stay with the electric bicycle market where uninformed consumers can be easily impressed by numbers that never have to be proven.
 
I have a relationship with these guys. I've machined their material for my motorcycle pack (below mb5 link). This material kinda kills two birds with one stone because you need some structure for large cylindrical cell arrays anyways to reduce vibrations which can undermine the nickel weld points.

The big downside is you have to double shrink wrap the cells and be very careful with your nickel terminations. It's not a HUGE deal, just have to take extra step in the assembly process. Once everything is all secured and taped up it becomes a non-issue.
 
As long as they stop exaggerating the output power, this could do well. This would butt heads with what Tesla has to offer. Except it is not nearly as advanced.
 
>> AllCell Technologies’ new phase change thermal management material
PCM/Graphite wax: I don’t get this. Let’s say I’m heading down the road and my pack gets warm. At some point the mass can only absorb so much. Now we have another problem because we can’t cool the pack fast enough + the residual heat is locked up. It just seems like another band-aid.

OK, so we have a bad cell or two. What then? Return the pack for servicing or purchase a new one?

Why not employ an active environmental conditioning system that keeps the pack from becoming too extreme (hot or cold)? Isn’t that what Tesla does? Seems to me that if you can keep the pack at nominal then these rare incidences would surface even less so.

~KF
 
How about not creating the heat in the first place? :mrgreen:

Allcell specs their batteries out at C rates which can waste 8%-12% of the energy inside the battery, which really necessitates this PCM material in the first place.

I understand it is a fine way to get low performance cells to not commit seppuku in an EV application, but nobody wants an overrated battery that will perform like crap in the winter, and worse as it ages, because it is effectively an overrated battery with no headroom in the discharge spec to begin with.
 
when-sorry-just-isnt-good-enough-seppuku-harakiri-sorry-demotivational-poster-1265254435.jpg


~KF :lol:
 
hillzofvalp said:
I have a relationship with these guys. I've machined their material for my motorcycle pack (below mb5 link). This material kinda kills two birds with one stone because you need some structure for large cylindrical cell arrays anyways to reduce vibrations which can undermine the nickel weld points.

The big downside is you have to double shrink wrap the cells and be very careful with your nickel terminations. It's not a HUGE deal, just have to take extra step in the assembly process. Once everything is all secured and taped up it becomes a non-issue.
Sleazy companies like AllCellTech exist thanks to customers like you. Or may be thanks to salesmen like you or that lester something guy. The line is getting blurred.

You repeatedly said 8C for the same Sanyo cell used in laptop computers for years. I have used those cells, both new and used. I would like to see you show everyone a graph of your 8C discharge with that cell.

You also claimed that this Sanyo cell is NMC, whatever the heck that is. Did you make that up? Because Sanyo never said it was NMC, not to my knowledge anyway. So prove me wrong, show me the Sanyo document and post your 8C discharge graph.

AllCellTech is already a shameless liar when it claims 2C continuous discharge. And you have the audacity to quadruple that!

hillzofvalp said:
Basically, the phase change material is graphite and wax based.. increases the peak C rate possible by the cells (around 8C I'd say). more info on technology here:
http://www.allcelltech.com/technology/thermal-management-with-phase-change-material/extend-cycle-life

I'm selling bare cells for him in another thread. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=42800

7798816012_8491532816_c.jpg

hillzofvalp said:
Circa 2006-07 cells. PCM machined I think in 2009. Tabbed in 2009. I cycled it once. That's all it has seen. If you want I can test it at 8C but I think it's fine,
 
I wouldn't call allcell sleazy at all either.
 
lester12483 said:
Careful with your slander Sam.. AllCell is in no way "sleazy".
It's not slander! But may be "sleazy" is not appropriate. So I am taking it back temporarily for the time being. I've said it before, I'm repeating now: AllCellTech's tech data are pure fantasy. That said, AllCellTech looks almost like an angel next to HobbyKing RC LiCo. No, that's not a compliment. AllCellTech just happens to be the lesser evil.

Who are you? A distributor, a saleman or both? Why don't you show us all how you achieve 2C continuous discharge and 1800 cycle life at 80% DOD. Do that and I will turn around and become a promoter. But if you can't, then every single chance I have, I will to tell everyone how, what word should I use, sneaky? deceptive? you and your product are. Can't wait for your proof.
 
SamTexas said:
hillzofvalp said:
I have a relationship with these guys. I've machined their material for my motorcycle pack (below mb5 link). This material kinda kills two birds with one stone because you need some structure for large cylindrical cell arrays anyways to reduce vibrations which can undermine the nickel weld points.

The big downside is you have to double shrink wrap the cells and be very careful with your nickel terminations. It's not a HUGE deal, just have to take extra step in the assembly process. Once everything is all secured and taped up it becomes a non-issue.
Sleazy companies like AllCellTech exist thanks to customers like you. Or may be thanks to salesmen like you or that lester something guy. The line is getting blurred.

You repeatedly said 8C for the same Sanyo cell used in laptop computers for years. I have used those cells, both new and used. I would like to see you show everyone a graph of your 8C discharge with that cell.

You also claimed that this Sanyo cell is NMC, whatever the heck that is. Did you make that up? Because Sanyo never said it was NMC, not to my knowledge anyway. So prove me wrong, show me the Sanyo document and post your 8C discharge graph.

AllCellTech is already a shameless liar when it claims 2C continuous discharge. And you have the audacity to quadruple that!

hillzofvalp said:
Basically, the phase change material is graphite and wax based.. increases the peak C rate possible by the cells (around 8C I'd say). more info on technology here:
http://www.allcelltech.com/technology/thermal-management-with-phase-change-material/extend-cycle-life

I'm selling bare cells for him in another thread. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=42800

7798816012_8491532816_c.jpg

hillzofvalp said:
Circa 2006-07 cells. PCM machined I think in 2009. Tabbed in 2009. I cycled it once. That's all it has seen. If you want I can test it at 8C but I think it's fine,


If I said NMC it was because I didn't have a spec sheet on me. I'm sorry. I said in my sale thread that what I was using was LiMnCo, but that isn't necessarily what all cell uses so I'm sorry for that misinformation.

My cells are LiMnCo in All cell phase change material. We put 20s30p packs containing this pcm and sanyo cells on an award winning go kart. They sag like hell, but we were pushing 3-4C continous with 5.3C burst. NOTE: I said "PEAK" (aka burst) C rate of 8C. This was for a racing application and we haven't evaluated the health of the cells because it's too early on. The outer aluminum of the pack was very warm, there was no fire, no coolant, etc. It was good. A friend bursts 8C on his motorcycle. That is where I got that figure. No claims were made by me on this forum.. only opinions which shouldn't be rudely ridiculed.

edit: I'm using All cell phase change material on my motorcycle with high C rate M1 cells. Why? It's for safety and even cell temperatures across pack regardless of load or weather conditions. I'm not a salesman or anything. IF I sound like I'm advertising I'm sorry.. I'm just a nerd. I like to promote EV stuff in general.
 
We have had several allcell packs in the shop. We discharged a 36v10ah pack at 700w, and it delivered 9.8ah and rose from 18c to 29c in ambient air. Thats not half bad...
 
Farfle said:
We have had several allcell packs in the shop. We discharged a 36v10ah pack at 700w, and it delivered 9.8ah and rose from 18c to 29c in ambient air. Thats not half bad...

Did you make note of the voltage drop at the ~2C rate you were using?
 
If I recall, the resistance of my 18650 cells are 160mOhm a piece. I remember our 20S30P pack sagging to the 58-60V area when doing 5.3C. Could have been spikes though.

I would estimate a 5-6.5V sag on the test Farfle did.
 
hillzofvalp said:
If I recall, the resistance of my 18650 cells are 160mOhm a piece. I remember our 20S30P pack sagging to the 58-60V area when doing 5.3C. Could have been spikes though.

I would estimate a 5-6.5V sag on the test Farfle did.

it seemed to stabilize at around 36.5v from a 41v starting voltage.
 
Farfle said:
hillzofvalp said:
If I recall, the resistance of my 18650 cells are 160mOhm a piece. I remember our 20S30P pack sagging to the 58-60V area when doing 5.3C. Could have been spikes though.

I would estimate a 5-6.5V sag on the test Farfle did.

it seemed to stabilize at around 36.5v from a 41v starting voltage.

Owch, but basically what i expected.
 
Yeah, they lose a fair amount of energy to heat at 2c, but it at least seems to be well managed.
 
Back
Top