Fight against ebikes heating up in Ontario

File this under Marketing and Promo. Maybe Product Design too...

Two recent articles:

From CBC Ottawa:
"All e-bikes banned on NCC bike paths"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/08/07/ot-ebikes-ncc-080807.html

From NOW Magazine Toronto:
"Whose lane is it anyway?"
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=164009

Hopefully Canucks here will add their [C]omment to these online articles. (American cousins welcome too of course!)

Tks
Lock

Thanks for posting the link, I added my 2c.

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Weak, man. Weak. :?

Not like I'd really obey that law, anyway.

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nutsandvolts said:

Well, there is an idea floating around for a bunch of ebikers to do a protest ride on the NCC trails.
But for me, every day is, I keep riding on these trails.

Click to expand...

Right on. Time to up the stealth factor

A view from the sticks. You guys are so lucky to have bicycle paths. And maybe rather than make it a contest between 48-volt scooters, souped-up mtn bikes and people powered cycles, try to spin it to the media as a general trend away from petro-travel. Rather than force the law-makers to choose one group over another, encourage them to see the light, and start dedicating slow traffic lanes as well. And watch for self-serving individuals and corporations that may be presenting a strong lobby. Like an e-bike importer who despises scooters because he/she doesn't sell them. . .

I think it's just growing pains and that there's room for everyone (except maybe the beer-guts in the vanity trucks

I just noticed this. Been busy building my ebike, under the information/impression that ebikes are legal on NCC paths.

F-ing Ridiculous !! Given that Ontario (and Quebec?) says it's OK.

NCC says they are "clarifying", IE not really changing the rules (which, who knows, could get us grand-fathered permission perhaps, if we bought/built an ebike BEFORE the rule change/clarification). They should have "clarified" 2+ years ago.

Any confirmed tickets ? Article says they will warn. Big deal, warn me all you want, but a ticket ?? Under what legal authority and jurisdiction are these tickets ? In one of the CBC comments someone mentioned getting tickets ??

Maybe I WANT a ticket, to fight it and see what happens. Pot smokers can light up on Parliament Hill as a form of protest, and it tends to be over-looked and considered a legitimate form of protest, on the Hill.

Perhaps a provocative, pre-announced ride-in on the Hill and surrounding paths is in order. Keep it clean, 32 KMH max, with bells and full respect for peds and non-e bikers etc. Bring a few people in electric wheel-chairs to add to the fun and perceived legitimacy (IE not just a bunch of rebel "bike path motorcycle speed demons".)

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nutsandvolts said:

mikereidis said:

Pot smokers can light up on Parliament Hill as a form of protest

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Should I ride up there, on ebike, naked, and light up?

I ride past there every day, there is usually some kind of protest going on. Today it was a huge protest of a bunch of pro lifers, and also protest of torturing falon gong in china. There has been puppy mill protests there every day for weeks. Its actually pretty cool what they allow on this hill.

Regarding ontario ebike laws, you can't see my motor anyways ...

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If your protest group is named "Naked Pot Smoking EBikers for Justice", then sure, whatever turns your crank/motor...

Better to do it during the day though, with others of the same ilk, and have signs too. Wasn't there some naked bikers ride not too long ago ? If they collided with the ebiker/snowboarder/thrill tokers group, then it could happen. Could even become a new Olympic sport...


I'm concerned that one of these days they'll make bikes go through the security checkpoint. Maybe once they figure out what a bike crammed with a CTire card's credit limit of YW batteries can do when stressed with BMS disabled.

August Edition
Monday, August 25, 2008 4:33 PM
From: "Cyclometer" <cyclometer@toronto.ca>
__________________________________________________________________
IN THE CURRENT ISSUE OF Cyclometer (Issue #145 August 2008):
__________________________________________________________________

Welcome to Cyclometer, a monthly newsletter to keep cyclists informed about cycling issues and
programs in the City of Toronto. August is always quieter in the city, but nonetheless there is still plenty of interesting news for Toronto cyclists. Enjoy.

Contents:

1. New Pedestrian Priority Phase at Signalized Intersections
2. Crothers Woods Trails Update
3. Bike Lockers Now at Scarborough Civic & Town Centre
4. Power-Assisted/Electric Bicycles Update
<SNIP>
4. Power-Assisted/Electric Bicycles Update
The City is aware of a growing number of concerns about power-assisted/electric bicycles that are the scooter-style vehicles. On October 3, 2006, the Province of Ontario began a three-year pilot project to evaluate the use of e-bikes.

Here's what the Ontario Ministry of Transportation's website tells us about that evaluation:
"A commitment has been made to evaluate the pilot prior to its three-year expiry. The intent of the ministry?s pilot was to allow e-bikes that look and operate like conventional bikes in order to promote a safe, healthy and environmentally friendly alternative to current transportation modes.
The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot's e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot?s original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted."

Go to http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/
Cyclometer will keep you informed on how to have input into this process in a future issue.

Lock said:

August Edition
The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot's e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot?s original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted."

Click to expand...

Funny, now the MTO is looking to "clarify original intent", in addition to the NCC that already has.

No more call them "rule changes", call them "clarificatons".

So they are targetting scooters or other "bikes" that are impractical to operate without electric. I saw a Chinese (?) electric scooter at GearHead here in Ottawa and I asked where the pedals were. She showed me where they could be attached.

Anyway, they don't seem to be targetting we real bike converters, at least, but what happens to those who bought these scooters ? Do they become illegal or require a licence/insurance ? How will they define difference between scooters/"bikes" that are impractical without electric due to weight, handling, pedal placement. etc.

Given the whole nature of the "pilot program" I've always been nervous about how it might change. That said, I don't really care too much. Nobody so far has actually noticed my bike is electric, even with 10 light switches under the seat, and now 3 outlets and a power cord ! Because it's a recumbent, or a recumbent pulling a double kid trailer, people see that if anything and I don't think they even notice my legs aren't spinning.

So if they outlaw it, fine I'll be an outlaw... Was talking to a nice cop today who showed my 6 year old (and I) his lights and other equipment. We chatted for a good 10 minutes. Says he's seen maybe 3 electric bikes but he doesn't really know what the law is about them... I told him, and explained the 32+ KMH muscle fuzziness in ebike speed limit. He laughed and indicated he couldn't see giving a speeding ticket to a bike. (BTW he was doing laser speed stops in 60 KMH zone, at least 500 feet from where it drops from 80, and said they don't bother with 80 KMH in 60 zone, 85 is ticket.)

Today I did a google on "bicycle brake" and came up with a recent story from Germany where police confiscated an office chair some kids added a gas motor and bike wheels and brakes to. Bwahahaha Ban ebikes and 50+ KMH office chairs are coming....

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I find that kind of opinion hilarious.
"""Look at the scooters due to size and weight. """
Hmm well without the LEAD battery they weight just as much as a steel frame bike but have the advantage of a plastic fairing for wind resistance and have lights, horn and blinkers built in.
After saddlebags on a regular bike they are no wider.
The Scooters are buiilt to spec for the law in regards to top speed.

Many of these "real" bicycles ARE "MOPEDS/Motor driven cycles" as they exceed by far the 32kph speed limit and most have uber hubs pushing 1000W or more. Basically the real bikes are more often the law breakers.

Not all "real" bikes are using light weight Lithium either, many have the same heavy lead acid batteries that the scooters have.
The "real" bikes are harder to dismount in an emergency as well. The scooters are real easy to vacate in an emergency.

I get a hell of alot more respect from cars on the scooter style bikes than I ever did on my mountainbike. Therefore the scooter style bikes, IMO, are SAFE BY FAR than the "real" bikes.

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I can pedal my WIDE scooter style bike without motor at 12Km/hr, Thin style scooter at 20 Km/hr, faster If I stand. 12km/hr is about the average speed pedaling a single speed bike.

Simply because it looks like an ICE bike doesn't mean it should be regulated like one. ICE's can go 60Km/hr (or more with conversions).

I've lifted these scooters by myself up onto boxes (other scooters are in, topped by plywood) for storage, without the battery in them. The weight is just a little more than a regular bike. Although more awkward to maneuver for less handy hand placements. Then there are the THIN scooter style bikes that are not much different than a regular bike but again has the plastic to mount stuff

Again at an intersection, you will be alot more visible on the scooter style bikes than on a mountain bike. In every category the scooter styles are safer.

I don't know about Ont. but in N.B. there is a Motor driven cycle category (for bicycle conversions with an ICE allowed to go up to 55Km/hr) and weigh MORE.

"if your battery were suddenly to die in the middle of intersection,"
Cherry picking worst case scenarios is a bit of a non sequeter to begin with. For instance what if your chain came off in the middle of an intersection. It's a lot easier to dismount a scooter style than a regular bicycle.
What if your tire blew and suddenly your riding on your rim? A 2.5 inch rim is sturdier than a 1 inch rim.
What if your saddle bags fell off and your battery spills onto the intersection?
What if your battery cables arc to the bike and electrify the frame? It's a lot safer to have that layer of plastic on a scooter style between you and the metal frame.
What if you hit a huge pothole and it bent your rim in the middle of an intersection? Mag style 2.5 will take alot more punishment before failure than a 1 inch spoked wheel.

What it comes down to is how fully functional bikes are driven and handle.

Do "bike" conversions handle the same as a wide and thin scooter style bike? Yes except the conversions are less visible, more likely to have battery retension failure, more likely to have drop out failures for lack of proper torque arms, more likely to not have proper lights and turn signals/ brake lights, more likely to have frame and rim failure when using SLA batteries, more likely to have illegal top speeds and too strong a motor, and finally are more likely to be driven wrecklessly (i.e. go and do things common on a regular bike that shouldn't be done when motorized).

Do Wide scooter styles handle the same as a ICE scooter? No. The electric bike (scooter style) don't accelerate as fast, don't have the same top speeds, aren't allowed to be driven inline with traffic where top speed of traffic is greater than the electric bicycle, can't pop wheelies, sometimes require pedal assistance on really steep hills, don't vibrate from continuous tiny EXPLOSIONS. If in an accident aren't going to spill flamable fluids, and the wheel if it encounters resistance will STOP spinning and burn out the motor instead of acting like a chainsaw/circular saw and chopping through whatever is encountered.

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When you add the escooter into the mix, you now have a vehicle that reacts differently from a bicycle, and the potential for accidents increases.

Click to expand...

Pure Bovine product. It doesn't react differently. I've driven all three. The safest of the three is the scooter style followed by the thin scooter style then the retrofit bike. What is driving this kickback is sour grapes (how come I have too ____ and they don't), bureaucratic greed, and 4 wheel attitudes of entitlement(the roads BELONG to us). Not to mention ICE industry protectionism. If people get comfortable with EV bikes the might get comfortable with EV cars.

When real data is made public it'll be the bike conversions involved in the most accidents, with the deadliest outcomes.

I also enjoy the asymetric comparison where you are assuming the scooters will have SLA and the bike conversions LiFePO4. Scooters can have LiFePO4 and conversions heavy SLA. Compare those weights and I'd bet on the scooter being lighter.


As for SLA on the scooter style I've seen the gamut of 48V 8 A, 12 14 and 22 AH, and I've seen bike conversions with 72V 20AH.

Of course when the final stats are delivered we must also demand that accidents be compared to GAS scooters motorcycles, motor driven cycles and regular cycles. I have no doubt they will attempt to skew the results to try to make ebikes look like a bad safety risk.

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I just can't understand why people continue to pay for vehicle insurance other than for theft (other than you are FORCED to).
You get in an accident and even if it is your fault your insurance pays for yours and the other guys pays for his. Both would be better off dumping that money into the stock market than dumping it into crash insurance.

wrobinson0413
Yes I have skin in the game. Lets be honest however. We are talking about the fightback against electric bikes and what is fueling it. It isn't the Cdn tire bikes that are fueling the fight, It's the stealth conversions. THAT makes them the direct comparison. People get upset over the stealth conversions when they fly past at 60 kph on a walking trail or park path then go to vent but the easiest target to vent against is the scooter style because they stick out. Yet the scooter styles are actually SLOWER than even regular bikes when propelled by a fit person except over long haul distance.

When you do the direct logical comparison and breakdown however, the evils the scooter styles are accused of are just not true.

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