Tesla Model 3

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » Aug 06, 2017 11:19 am

markz wrote:Saw a Tesla Model X I think it was, Gull-Wing rear doors. Very sleak!
Is that a new model or has it been out for awhile?
One rolled past me in Wales uk all I could hear was the tyres I also had two hydrogen mirai prius look alikes pass me so there incentive to some to use these cars but it's still less than 0.1% using them at the moment hybrids and nisdan leafs have been used by the local taxi firms for city use.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Aug 07, 2017 7:21 pm

more model 3 spec details becoming available from Teslas EPA certification docs..
* 80.5 kWhr, 350 v, 230Ah, battery pack ( long range pack)
* 258 Hp , 3 ph, Permanent Magnet drive motor. ( different to S and X Induction motors)
* regen braking on the front wheels as well as the rear... :shock: ???
One of the Test reports suggest a range driven of 495 miles, and a recharge energy of 89kWh ..?
source..
https://electrek.co/2017/08/07/tesla-mo ... -revealed/
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by speedmd » Aug 07, 2017 8:01 pm

Interesting they setup regen on non drive wheels. Not surprised they went to permanent magnets in the lower cost cars motor. Will be interesting to see how exactly they place them.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Aug 08, 2017 7:02 pm

Apparently, during a financial conference on Monday ( Junk bond issue) , Musk stated the M3 packs were infact 50 kWh , and 75 kWh,...but didnt clarify if this was their "working" capacity or their "gross" capacity .
I cannot find any direct report of that conference. :?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ianhill » Aug 08, 2017 7:28 pm

Hillhater wrote:Apparently, during a financial conference on Monday ( Junk bond issue) , Musk stated the M3 packs were infact 50 kWh , and 75 kWh,...but didnt clarify if this was their "working" capacity or their "gross" capacity .
I cannot find any direct report of that conference. :?
That would be using 95% state of charge that's not going to be to good for a cells health in the long run the 21700 will need to be robust to put up with that type of cycling, I would try not to use the full range and keep it around the sweet spot unless I planned a long distance run.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by jonescg » Aug 09, 2017 10:29 pm

Use of permanent magnet motors is very intriguing. It could be a typo on the part of the EPA, but it could be a big shift. Technically it's not a Tesla motor then (more like a Westinghouse? ;) )

Permanent magnet materials are sketchy, and Tesla is trying to avoid unethical / unsustainable procurement. Maybe it is set up for regen braking on all wheels? You can achieve that with induction rotors, but PM would be more efficient.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Aug 09, 2017 10:45 pm

Discussion in other threads suggest the PM motor is a logical move to get better efficiency ( range), but it has me beat... as i was of the understanding induction motors were the future for EVs ? :? :?
At least we seem to have a better understanding of the new packs and cells.. 4416 cells, 21700 format, 5.0 Ahr
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Pajda » Aug 24, 2017 1:01 pm

Now we have at least final confirmation about technologies used in TM3 battery pack. https://electrek.co/2017/08/24/tesla-mo ... hitecture/

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Aug 24, 2017 9:07 pm

Either they are "rating" the packs conservatively at 50kWh and 74kWh, (possibly a working capacity ?).
.... Or they are suggesting the 21700 cell is only 4.4 Ah capacity ?
Quite different to the data on the EpA documents Tesla submitted which indicated 5.0Ah cell capacity ?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Aug 24, 2017 10:11 pm

Hillhater wrote:Either they are "rating" the packs conservatively at 50kWh and 74kWh, (possibly a working capacity ?).
.... Or they are suggesting the 21700 cell is only 4.4 Ah capacity ?
Quite different to the data on the EpA documents Tesla submitted which indicated 5.0Ah cell capacity ?
I bet its advertised VS working
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RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Pajda » Aug 25, 2017 5:25 am

I think that Tesla cells are really 5Ah with with the appropriate amount of energy. For example BMZ company also announced that they have 5Ah cells in serial production so anything less will be disappointment. It seems to me that Tesla really would like to stop using battery energy as vehicle marking, especially with low-cost TM3. This confirms that Tesla has not yet listed the battery energy as an official parameter. Only "around" type expressions are available.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Aug 25, 2017 6:27 am

Not much doubt as their EPA docs clearly stated 230 Ahr on the 46p pack.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Aug 25, 2017 9:48 am

Pajda wrote:I think that Tesla cells are really 5Ah with with the appropriate amount of energy. For example BMZ company also announced that they have 5Ah cells in serial production so anything less will be disappointment. It seems to me that Tesla really would like to stop using battery energy as vehicle marking, especially with low-cost TM3. This confirms that Tesla has not yet listed the battery energy as an official parameter. Only "around" type expressions are available.
I agree but they are likely only using 4.4ah out of the cells even though they might be able to do 5ah. This does two things makes them last longer and makes it seem like there is no degradation for a very long time.

One other thing to point out is even if a cell is rated for 5ah you might not ever be able to get 5ah out of it in an EV. The reason for this is most cell companies use what ever test data they can to state the higher ah they can for their cells. Meaning they might have cycled them at 1/100 C to get 5ah out of the cells and that becomes the advertised energy in the cell even though at 1C you can only get ~ 4.xx ah out of it.
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Pajda » Aug 25, 2017 1:16 pm

Arlo1 wrote: I agree but they are likely only using 4.4ah out of the cells even though they might be able to do 5ah. This does two things makes them last longer and makes it seem like there is no degradation for a very long time.

One other thing to point out is even if a cell is rated for 5ah you might not ever be able to get 5ah out of it in an EV. The reason for this is most cell companies use what ever test data they can to state the higher ah they can for their cells. Meaning they might have cycled them at 1/100 C to get 5ah out of the cells and that becomes the advertised energy in the cell even though at 1C you can only get ~ 4.xx ah out of it.
You're absolutely right, but.. :D The same principle has been used in Model S/X, where the brick protection is set to 3V per cell and so you cannot use last ca 5% of capacity (down to 2,5V). Also the nominal capacity is usually measured under C/5 or 0,2C discharge. The gain of going to C/10 or lower is below units of percent. But there is still significant gain in usable energy when discharging under very low C-rate.

For battery life is most important average DoD. And this value will be significantly higher in this smaller battery. In fact this "50kWh" will be the smallest battery used by Tesla so I do not even wonder that they probably set brick protection to ca 12% of capacity which is far more than in MS/MX batteries.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Oct 04, 2017 8:45 am

Hmmm ? ....A bit off the start up schedule !...
....The electric-car maker said Monday that it produced 260 Model 3 sedans and delivered 220 of the cars in the third quarter, after holding a launch event for the car at the end of July that included the delivery of the first few cars to employees. Chief Executive Elon Musk has said that he expected Tesla TSLA, +0.91% to produce 100 Model 3 cars in August and ramp up to 1,500 in September, with plans to produce 5,000 Model 3 cars a week by the end of the year.
And back in July (4th)..
In a series of tweets overnight, Musk announced details about the Model 3’s production timing. The CEO began by saying, “Model 3 passed all regulatory requirements for production two weeks ahead of schedule. Expecting to complete SN1 on Friday [July 7, US time].”

Musk went on to state, “Handover party for first 30 customer Model 3’s on the 28th! Production grows exponentially, so Aug should be 100 cars and Sept above 1500.”

Lastly, the outspoken Tesla chief said it “looks like we can reach 20,000 Model 3 cars per month in Dec”.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by markz » Oct 05, 2017 12:49 pm

A little off indeed

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by dirkdiggler » Oct 05, 2017 4:39 pm

I just got back from the Tesla factory. Did a tour last week there. Pretty interesting. Seems like they were banging away on hundreds of vehicles. I was able to see most parts to the model 3, but didn't see any close to being completed. They are doing them in a separate part of the factory. The tour guide was hush on model 3 information, especially since their quarterly report was a few days away. I've never seen what Detroit does, but seems like the got there stuff in order. Way clean facility with tons of robots. Not a ton for humans to do, mostly route cabling.
I was hoping to see a lot full of the completed Model 3s, but only caught one on my way out of the parking lot. He was driving in, so I chased him down and got some pictures. I'd hate to own of them right now. Five people huddled around the car taking pictures! I tried to be kind enough to let him get out and inside work before I started gawking. Through the weekend I saw three cars. Tried to chase one down at night, but couldn't keep up in traffic. That's 1.5% of the cars in existence. Tesla will get there on production soon enough. Personally, I would rather have a used X or S anyway. They are available right now, no waiting. The car will be a game changer though. Look at all the car manufacturers announcing electric vehicles trying to catch up.
BTW, the whole Bay area is a bunch of Tesla homers. I jokingly kept pointing out Tesla's, after a half an hour the joke was old. I think the issue with Tesla will be that there aren't enough models to separate your car from everyone else's car. People want to be different and stand out. Granted I saw hundreds of 911 turbos there, where I see one or two in Utah. Even those owners, have issues being unique. I'd probably buy a Ford F-150 if I lived there, just to be different, that's just me though.
I find it really interesting that the only physical difference between a 160k Tesla and a $60k one is a few numbers on the bumper. The 60kwh version is one where some owners rip that 60 off and just leave it blank, at least that what I think the car is, but who knows. I think people would be proud of the fact they have P100D on their car and not take off theirs. That P100D signifies they spent huge money on their car and it is much faster than standard. Porsche owners have been known to change their vehicle numbers to have a Carrera become a 4 or 4s. Most vehicles however have some defining characteristic that makes that car stand out. Conspicuous consumption is still a thing for people. How has Tesla kept everyone so humble?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Nov 01, 2017 8:10 pm

Model 3 production problems continue...
Last month, Tesla announced that it delivered only 220 Model 3 vehicles and produced 260 units during the third quarter.
It has now been confirmed by Tesla in their shareholder’s letter:

“To date, our primary production constraint has been in the battery module assembly line at Gigafactory 1, where cells are packaged into modules. Four modules are packaged into an aluminum case to form a Model 3 battery pack. The combined complexity of module design and its automated manufacturing process has taken this line longer to ramp than expected. The biggest challenge is that the first two zones of a four zone process, key elements of which were done by manufacturing systems suppliers, had to be taken over and significantly redesigned by Tesla. We have redirected our best engineering talent to fine-tune the automated processes and related robotic programming, and we are confident that throughput will increase substantially in upcoming weeks and ultimately be capable of production rates significantly greater than the original specification.”

Based on its current understanding of the bottlenecks, Tesla updated its expected production ramp timeline:

“Based on what we know now, we currently expect to achieve a production rate of 5,000 Model 3 vehicles per week by late Q1 2018, recognizing that our production growth rate is like a stepped exponential, so there can be large forward jumps from one week to the next. We will provide an update when we announce Q4 production and delivery numbers in the first few days of January. With respect to the timing for producing 10,000 units per week, it has always been our intention to implement that capacity addition after we have achieved a 5,000 per week run rate.”

It
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by speedmd » Nov 01, 2017 9:45 pm

Not where you want to be, pulling key parts of the job from poor suppliers to go into re-design before you even get rolling. Sounds like incredibly bad purchasing management or something possibly more malicious. That is if we can believe the story line which sounds like cycle times were much longer then promised. Not sure that would or should be a surprise. Most likely, they were getting into rework -quality issues. No one ever wants to talk about that. :oops:

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