Tesla Model 3

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by jonescg » Jun 20, 2017 1:48 am

spinningmagnets wrote:
Right thread?
If the ES members participating in that discussion want the name changed, or they want that discussion moved back, I can do either one. It is a brand new thread created for that two page discussion which "looked like" it was about subsidies and cost/benefits of coal/wind-solar, etc...

Didn't see any mention of the Tesla Model 3 on those pages.
Thanks SM, we do go on...

:)

Anyway, looking forward to getting a 74 kWh EV with a towbar. And about half the price of a Model S.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jun 20, 2017 9:43 am

jonescg wrote:
Thanks SM, we do go on...

:)

Anyway, looking forward to getting a 74 kWh EV with a towbar. And about half the price of a Model S.
Me too.
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RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
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Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Dauntless » Jun 20, 2017 7:40 pm

Well, you gotta allow the discussion to meander a little bit.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/06/18/no ... naysayers/
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by LockH » Jun 21, 2017 12:29 am

LockH wrote:Image
(They say:)
Bloomberg | Quint is a multiplatform, Indian business and financial news company. We combine Bloomberg’s global leadership in business and financial news and data, with Quintillion Media’s deep expertise in the Indian market and digital news delivery, to provide high quality business news, insights and trends for India’s sophisticated audiences.

Bloomberg Media is the world’s leading multi-platform media company for business and finance, which draws on the editorial resources of more than 2,400 editorial professionals globally in more than 120 countries. Bloomberg Media is the consumer-facing media organization of Bloomberg L.P.

Quintillion Media is one of India’s fastest growing digital content companies. With its flagship product TheQuint.com in English and Hindi (hindi.thequint.com), it has pioneered a new form of digital journalism and storytelling for the mobile-first, social-native consumer.
Denmark Is Killing Tesla (and Other Electric Cars):
https://www.bloombergquint.com/technolo ... ctric-cars

Begins:

(Bloomberg) -- The electric car has dropped out of favor in the country that pioneered renewable energy.

Sales in Denmark of Electrically Chargeable Vehicles (ECV), which include plug-in hybrids, plunged 60.5 percent in the first quarter of the year, compared with the first three months of 2016, according to latest data from the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA). That contrasts with an increase of nearly 80 percent in neighboring Sweden and an average rise of 30 percent in the European Union.
Includes a graph:
Image

Continues:

The figures suggest clean-energy vehicles still aren’t attractive enough to compete without some form of subsidy.

Denmark, a global leader in wind power whose own attempt at an electric car in the early 1980s famously flopped, used to be enthralled with them. Its bicycle-loving people bought 5,298 of them in 2015, more than double the amount sold that year in Italy, which has a population more than 10 times the size of Denmark's.

However, it turns out that those phenomenal sales figures had as much to do with convenience as with environmental concerns: electric car dealers were for a long time spared the jaw-dropping import tax of 180 percent that Denmark applies on vehicles fueled by a traditional combustion engine.

In the fall of 2015, the Liberal-led government of Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field.

Tesla, whose sales were skyrocketing at the time, lobbied against the move, with Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk warning during a visit to Copenhagen that sales would be hit.

The new tax regime "completely killed the market," Laerke Flader, head of the Danish Electric Car Alliance, said in a recent interview. "Price really matters."
... and goes on:

According to the government’s original plans, tax breaks were to have been phased out from 2016 to 2020, when they would be treated in the same way as fossil fuel-powered cars.

But on April 18, having taken note of the drop in sales, the government decided to change the rules.

"It’s no secret electrical vehicle sales have been below what we expected a year and a half ago," Tax Minister Karsten Lauritzen said in a statement. "The agreed phase-in has turned out to be hard and that likely halted sales."

The new rules mean the transition to a post-subsidy era has been postponed until at least 5,000 new electric cars are sold over the 2016-2018 period. Tax breaks will in any case be progressively eliminated as of 2019, regardless of sales numbers. The plan envisages a 40 percent registration tax minus a 10,000 kroner ($1,500) deduction in 2019, with the tax rising to 65 percent in 2021, 90 percent in 2021 and 100 percent in 2022.

While sales of low or zero emission cars continue to boom in neighboring Sweden thanks to a wide range of subsidies, including a five-year tax break and a 40,000 kronor ($4,600) purchase premium, the Danish government's U-turn has caused confusion, prompting many potential customers to either postpone or desist from their purchases.

Flader said electric car dealers have rolled back their sales drive as a result.
... and ends:

One of the hardest hit is Tesla, the global poster child of electric cars, whose Model S once dominated the Danish market.

Flader, however, anticipates a rebound in sales as soon as dealerships are allowed to advertise tax-free prices again.
8)
Possible source of Swedens backing away from lithium batteries... Prata svenska?:
http://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/stora-uts ... er-6851761

... seen here (in English):
Study: Tesla car battery production releases as much CO2 as 8 years of driving on petrol:
https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2017/06 ... etrol/amp/

[Sigh]
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 21, 2017 12:38 am

That might be true, but if the CO2 is produced inside the building, it can easily be captured by an upgraded ventilation system?

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by LockH » Jun 21, 2017 1:54 am

spinningmagnets wrote:That might be true, but if the CO2 is produced inside the building, it can easily be captured by an upgraded ventilation system?
(Giggle Translation from Swedish lang. "source", in part:)
The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used in the battery plant accounts for more than half of fossil power.
So perhaps they're including the source of the electricity used to manufacture the batteries... and etc?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jun 21, 2017 1:57 am

Not true at all.

Anytime you see something like this its funded by someone who wants to short Tesla stock or someone invested in OIL.

When you look at what it takes to make an electric car you need to look at what it takes to make a ICE equivalent car. When you look at how dirty the power is to fill the battery you need to compare how dirty the process is to make gasoline then add how dirty it is to burn the gasoline and add how dirty it is to change the oil and do other maintenance required for a ICE equivalent car.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/108 ... han-an-suv
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by LockH » Jun 21, 2017 2:12 am

Cool... erm... Arlo1... this Green Car Reports article from May, 2013 but still relevant I'm pretty sure. Will read now... let you know if anything of interest. Here in Ontario, the province did give up using coal since 2013 to generate electricity. But replaced it with nuclear power [sigh] (Not sure how to measure "pollution" from nuke generators. LOTS of places will say that nuke is a no-go.) MY approach is no more empty seats in vehicles used for personal transport in urban environments. :wink:
(In other words, "small", "light weight" and "slower" vehicles that have operable pedals and that CAN be pedaled... for many reasons.)
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jun 21, 2017 3:11 am

Wasnt Tesla going to build a Solar farm to generate all the power for the Gigafactory ?
What happened to that ?
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by jonescg » Jun 21, 2017 3:56 am

Hillhater wrote:Wasnt Tesla going to build a Solar farm to generate all the power for the Gigafactory ?
What happened to that ?
As far as I know they were going to use the roof - it's certainly big enough...

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jun 21, 2017 5:33 am

jonescg wrote: Anyway, looking forward to getting a 74 kWh EV with a towbar. And about half the price of a Model S.
? half the price of a new one you mean ??
http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/pri ... 5798&Cr=11
cheapest in Oz ..at a mere $115k :lol: ..well that is about half the price for a new one in Oz..and in your town !
..Towbar extra .
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jun 21, 2017 8:28 pm

jonescg wrote:
Hillhater wrote:Wasnt Tesla going to build a Solar farm to generate all the power for the Gigafactory ?
What happened to that ?
As far as I know they were going to use the roof - it's certainly big enough...
apparently not..
they will still be grid tied, and have multiple supply sources..
......Tesla's 10 million square foot factory will be covered in solar panels, and be plugged into a nearby wind turbine farm and geothermal electricity plant, according to Tesla CEO Elon Musk.

A battery factory of that size is estimated to consume 100 megawatts (MW) of power at peak capacity or 2,400MWh per day, according to Navigant Research. By comparison, that's the equivalent electricity consumption of about 80,000 homes.

"It's an enormous amount of energy for a single facility," said Sam Jaffe, a principal research analyst with Navigant.

Most of the energy required by the Gigafactory, Jaffe said, will be used to power ovens, which are used to bake chemical powders onto metal foil used in the production of cathodes and anodes -- the positive and negative points of a battery.

Tesla's choice of sites for its Gigafactory was optimal for several reasons that wouldn't necessarily benefit other types of factories. First, Reno is also one of the few areas in the world where the Earth's crust is thin enough to offer access to geothermal energy, i.e. heat from the Earth's mantle.

That geothermal heat is not variable, but constant, and can be used in the Gigafactory's ovens or to create steam to power turbines.

While Reno is an arid region, precluding manufacturing that requires a lot of water, it does get on average five peak hours of sun per day compared to other areas of the country, such as the Northeast, which get about 2 hours.

"It's the predictability that is so much better in that geography," Gaffe said.

The other top energy use in the Gigafactory will be to fully charge up batteries and then discharge them in order to condition them for use. However, in an efficient battery factory, discharging batteries can be used to charge others - to power requirements should be minimal, Jaffe said.

Lastly, the Gigafactory is producing batteries, which Tesla could then use to cheaply store power during off-peak renewable energy production.
Not really "off grid"

Lombardo doesn't believe the factory, however, will be energy independent based on its own renewable power plants. Instead, it will use "net metering", a method whereby Tesla will generate its own electricity and sell excess back to utilities. Then, during times when Tesla's own renewable energy production falls below demand, the electrical grid will intelligently route to it electricity based on energy credits.

"It's more reliable, more cost-effective, and location-independent," Lombardo said in an email reply to Computerworld. "Even Tesla isn't necessarily going off-grid. Musk said "net-zero energy," which just means that they'll generate as much energy as they use."

On average, Reno basks in five peak hours of sunlight per day.

Using an average 20% efficiency for rooftop photovoltaic (PV) panels, the Gigafactory's 10 million square foot roof would produce 850MWh of solar power daily, Lombardo said.

Additionally, using Tesla's own artist's rendition of the Gigafacotry, Lombardo estimates that the Gigafactory would have 85 wind turbines able to generate about 1,836 MWh of power daily.

"Reno is no stranger to geothermal energy - it has several plants in operation already. The newest has a 20MW capacity," Lombardo wrote in his blog. "Let's say Tesla goes small and builds one with only half of that capacity. That 10MW plant would produce 240MWh of daily geothermal electricity......
http://www.computerworld.com/article/26 ... thers.html
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by nicobie » Jul 03, 2017 1:28 pm

It looks like they will be for sale this weekend.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 03, 2017 3:26 pm

nicobie wrote:It looks like they will be for sale this weekend.
Lmfao you been reading shitty fake headlines again?
The first model 3 with vin number 1 will likely be produced Friday. It has nothing to do with "for sale" as it's already sold they have been "for sale" for over a year..... Also when you read the headlines they say stupid shit like 215km/charge.... They are doing this on purpose.... :(
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Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Dauntless » Jul 03, 2017 5:02 pm

Arlo1 wrote:
nicobie wrote:It looks like they will be for sale this weekend.
Lmfao you been reading shitty fake headlines again?
The first model 3 with vin number 1 will likely be produced Friday. It has nothing to do with "for sale" as it's already sold they have been "for sale" for over a year..... Also when you read the headlines they say stupid shit like 215km/charge.... They are doing this on purpose.... :(
Does that mean they deliberately said there'd be yet another free Tesla giveaway today? It was radio news, I'm not finding an announcement on CNN.com or anything.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by nicobie » Jul 03, 2017 6:29 pm

[quote="Arlo1"
Lmfao you been reading shitty fake headlines again?
([/quote]


Arlo, you really a dillweed. SHITTY... FAKE ?

Tesla 3 is not even a competitor compared to the Volt with unlimited range.

Hopefully you can pay off the tesla3 price difference within 4 years like I did with my Volt.

WHat the heck, you are welcome to charge up at my house. 220v 14A at my house any time you are in the area. That would be good for < 60 miles with 4 hours on a charger.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jul 03, 2017 8:24 pm

Musk has said the first 30 M3s will be delivered to customers by July 28th.
150 more in August
1500 in September
plan for 20,000 in December .. :shock:
and of course 500,000 in 2018 ! :roll:

... meanwhile, in the real world...
Tesla share just dipped another 2%.. 9% ( $385 -$352 ) in the week, after the 2nd quarter results were released today.
Tesla delivered just more than 22,000 vehicles in the second quarter, down from 25,000 in the previous quarter.

The electric car maker blamed a severe production shortfall of 100 kilowatt-hour battery packs. The company said production average 40 percent below demand, until early June. But once the issue was resolved, Tesla said production speed rebounded.
Despite the slowdown, deliveries were up 53 percent from the same period a year earlier.

Of the over 22,000 vehicles delivered, 12,000 were Model S cars and just over 10,000 were Model X vehicles. Tesla produced 25,708 vehicles in the quarter, bringing production for the first half of the year to 51,126.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 03, 2017 9:35 pm

nicobie wrote:
Arlo1 wrote: Lmfao you been reading shitty fake headlines again?

Arlo, you really a dillweed. SHITTY... FAKE ?

Tesla 3 is not even a competitor compared to the Volt with unlimited range.

Hopefully you can pay off the tesla3 price difference within 4 years like I did with my Volt.

WHat the heck, you are welcome to charge up at my house. 220v 14A at my house any time you are in the area. That would be good for < 60 miles with 4 hours on a charger.
There is a lot of fake head lines on yahoo and CNN and what not saying "tesla will start selling cars firday" as well they said they will have "215km range" not miles. These headlines are deliberate and trying to skew people away from the model 3...

As for charging.... I have supercharger accsess..... I also will never have to change oil or sevice the fuel system or carry around the dead weight of the ICE slowing me down...

My CRX is working proof of this I drive it everywhere it has 200-240km/charge range and I have 30kwh more battery to shove in the trunk for long trips. As well I have 13kw of L2 charging and I am working on the CHAdeMO setup right now... I am not worried about long trips and I am 99% off gas now... I can't fit my whole family in the CRX so the Model 3 will be the family trip car...

Anyways the fake news was not a dig at you it was me being frustrated about all the Tesla headlines all over the net this morning that were clearly written wrong on porous. The Koch brothers and what not have a clear agenda... And even if they can sway 1 more car sale to be ICE that's over $30,000 cdn of gasoline sales they will profit from.
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Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Ohbse » Jul 04, 2017 1:01 am

Hillhater wrote:Musk has said the first 30 M3s will be delivered to customers by July 28th.
150 more in August
1500 in September
plan for 20,000 in December .. :shock:
and of course 500,000 in 2018 ! :roll:

... meanwhile, in the real world...
Tesla share just dipped another 2%.. 9% ( $385 -$352 ) in the week, after the 2nd quarter results were released today.
...having climbed 67% in one year, eclipsing the market value of BMW, Ford and GM. lol.

What makes you think his targets are unrealistic? He announced today that the car has cleared regulatory approvals two weeks ahead of schedule, first production vehicles are being produced now and will be completing first deliveries on schedule, in July. So far Tesla have hit all of their VERY ambitious accelerated production ramp milestones after the pre-orders were massively higher than expected. An enormous amount of effort has been focused on avoiding mistakes of the past and leveraging all the lessons learnt with the last two models.

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jul 04, 2017 3:12 am

why unrealistic targets ?
..maybe because they have not made a single finished customer car yet !
.. maybe because they have never made 20,000 cars of any sort in a single month, even on models they have been producing for years.
..maybe its because they have never met any of their own previous production or sales targets
..maybe because every quarter they have an excuse as to why they fell short, but say they have it all sorted
...what was it this time ?, shortage of battery packs....which means the Gfactory is missing its targets also.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 04, 2017 9:45 am

Hillhater wrote:why unrealistic targets ?
..maybe because they have not made a single finished customer car yet !
.. maybe because they have never made 20,000 cars of any sort in a single month, even on models they have been producing for years.
..maybe its because they have never met any of their own previous production or sales targets
..maybe because every quarter they have an excuse as to why they fell short, but say they have it all sorted
...what was it this time ?, shortage of battery packs....which means the Gfactory is missing its targets also.
But non of this is true.
The deliver finished Model S and Model Xs all the time.
20,000 cars in a month is more then they have done but that's just numbers and simple math. That's like someone saying I can't deal with 20 customers in a month because they see me doing major motor rebuilds all the time... But they fail to think I could easily do 20 tire changes for 20 different customers. What I am getting at is building a Model X is like a engine rebuild it takes a lot of time. Where as building a 3 is like a tire change.
They don't really set sales targets they just sell as many as they can. If your logic was correct on this there would be a major backlog that is ever increasing and the waiting times would be growing for the Model S and Model X but it is the opposite
And Actually the first quarter this year they delivered a record number of cars and its is getting sorted.


The thing is they have been AHEAD of scheduled on every mark with the model 3 so I have no reason to think they will be late! They obviously learnt from the Model S & X!
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RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jul 04, 2017 3:13 pm

they are all facts .
....And Actually the first quarter this year they delivered a record number of cars and its is getting sorted.
... and then in the 2nd quarter they fell short again , 3000 less than Q1.. but a different excuse this time, .
...but still say they will get it sorted !
their "record" production is 25,400 in a quarter....8500 a month !...and pretty static at that ,after 5 years of production.
..and you think they can make that 38,500 + in December ? ( that's without any increase in S or X production)
..Time will reveal all !
Last edited by Hillhater on Jul 04, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 04, 2017 4:05 pm

Hillhater wrote:they are all facts .
....And Actually the first quarter this year they delivered a record number of cars and its is getting sorted.
... and then in the 2nd quarter they fell short again , 300 less than Q1.. but a different excuse this time, .
...but still say they will get it sorted !
their "record" production is 25,400 in a quarter....8500 a month !...and pretty static at that ,after 5 years of production.
..and you think they can make that 38,500 + in December ? ( that's without any increase in S or X production)
..Time will reveal all !
They might be doing it on purpose maybe the sales for the X and S are not strong enough to make more... Keeping production a bit low to make them rare or limited is nothing new....

Also with all the factory retooling for the model 3 I would expect some ups and downs...

But only being down 300 from the best quarter they have had is not a bid deal... If they dropped to like 1/2 or less i would worry.
The production of the 3 is a different animal and different assembly line.... Like I said its an apples to oranges comparison.

Like Fiat vs Ferrari for production numbers!!
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Hillhater » Jul 04, 2017 5:09 pm

the 2nd quarter they fell short again , 300 less than Q1..
oops,!... sorry that was a typo... should have been 3000 less !
corrected now.
Incidentally, that is a 12% drop in production, which would be considered a "career changing" event in many companies !
and yes, the M3 is a very different manufacture process, so they are starting from scratch, and any previous learning will not help much
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Re: Tesla Model 3

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 04, 2017 8:15 pm

Hillhater wrote: and yes, the M3 is a very different manufacture process, so they are starting from scratch, and any previous learning will not help much
No any learning will help immensely as now they know to design the car for ease of production rather then cool features and they know all kinds of mistakes to avoid as well they know how to setup all sorts of the automation.

Again so far EVERY SINGLE STEP THEY HAVE BEEN AHEAD OF SCHEDULE!

Even when people are driving their cars and tesla is delivering 400k model 3s a year you will still say they are going to fail and miss the mark.

There is a pattern with your comments and they are always negative....
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