High end motors - priced out of existence?

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jonescg
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High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Nov 21, 2015 8:57 am

I don't know where else to post this, but the business section seems appropriate.

I contacted Rinehart Motion Systems about accessing Evo-GKN motors, since they refuse to sell one-offs to guys like me. At least Rinehart has a history of working with Evo, and they have tuned their inverters to the Evo motor nicely.

:(

They will sell one-off motors to Rinehart, but at some comically larcenous prices. They quoted a price of US$16,000! That's $26,000 AUD including shipping, taxes and duties. I bought the motor for Voltron for just $11,000 inclusive, and I thought tat was too steep. Are these guys just taking the piss?

Yasa motors are no different; even more effing expensive.

So why the hell are these sophisticated piles of aluminium, steel and copper so damn expensive? And why have they just got two times MORE expensive?

Surely you can build a motor yourself for these sorts of prices and pay yourself for the trouble...

I despair :cry:

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Punx0r » Nov 21, 2015 2:31 pm

Suspect what you're looking at is the development and overhead costs of a low-volume product.

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Nov 21, 2015 8:26 pm

Still? I mean, they have known how to make these motors since 2009, and their manufacture can only be easier six years on. Surely they would want to get a few more units out the door, even if just for demonstration purposes?

Perhaps they should have saved their money and not filed patents on their stuff...

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by amberwolf » Nov 22, 2015 3:11 am

Unless they have some sort of contract to sell them at those higher prices to someone no one yet knows about, that precludes them selling them at any lower prices to anyone else, I can't see any reason for them to do it that way.

It won't help them sell enough to pay for development, if they price them so high that no one will buy them.

I guess the question is: are people still buying them? And in enough quantities that they will still be making as much or more money than if they sold them at the lower price?


If they're not selling at the higher price, then either they have some other plan, or secret buyer, or something else is going on behind the scenes.

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by voicecoils » Nov 22, 2015 7:10 am

jonescg wrote:Surely you can build a motor yourself for these sorts of prices and pay yourself for the trouble...

I despair :cry:
Maybe it's time to do just that 8)

Even if it ends up being a few % less efficient and/or ~10% heavier than a highly refined design, it would be nice to have control over the costs and lead time with a homebuilt one.

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Nov 22, 2015 7:57 am

Just need to buy one of these tooth-making rolling machines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPGlx8ThngU

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Harold in CR » Nov 22, 2015 8:16 am

This may or may not be any help, but, have you investigated the Toyota MGR motors? They have very thin laminations, rated at 50KW-68HP and max RPM is 10,500, 650V, and the stator measures 235mm OD. You would need a new case to mount the stator, but, that could surely be easier than designing a whole motor ? Might be too big for a moto ??

Are listed on Ebay for $200.00 & up. Might find them in OZ from a wrecker.

IF you want to investigate, go http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.p ... 29878.html. The thread is VERY interesting.
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Hillhater » Dec 18, 2015 6:38 am

jonescg wrote: .....They will sell one-off motors to Rinehart, but at some comically larcenous prices. They quoted a price of US$16,000!

Yasa motors are no different; even more effing expensive.

So why the hell are these sophisticated piles of aluminium, steel and copper so damn expensive? And why have they just got two times MORE expensive?

I despair :cry:
What about the AMR 90 ?
150 kW and still priced under $10k ?
A bit heavy for a bike at 150 lb maybe.
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by kiwiev » Dec 26, 2015 4:46 am

Hillhater wrote:
jonescg wrote: .....They will sell one-off motors to Rinehart, but at some comically larcenous prices. They quoted a price of US$16,000!

Yasa motors are no different; even more effing expensive.

So why the hell are these sophisticated piles of aluminium, steel and copper so damn expensive? And why have they just got two times MORE expensive?

I despair :cry:
What about the AMR 90 ?
150 kW and still priced under $10k ?
A bit heavy for a bike at 150 lb maybe.
I agree Hillhater or try theses
And the new Parker traction AC motors look good about 12" long by 9" diameter weight is 56Kg and at 360 volts I can get 260hp and 425 ft/lb may have to go the Audi AWD to get the traction with a Rinehart controller.

Cheers Kuwi

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Samd » Dec 26, 2015 5:20 am

I'm interested in having a go. I've been wondering if it could be done in a modular sense on Aussie soil. Waterjet and cnc. What do you think?
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by kiwiev » Dec 26, 2015 5:23 am

Samd wrote:I'm interested in having a go. I've been wondering if it could be done in a modular sense on Aussie soil. Waterjet and cnc. What do you think?

Hell yeah Sam I think there is only $2000 worth of bits and same goes with the AC controller surly we could get something together :idea:
P's check my pm

Cheers Kiwi

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by el_gallo_azul » Jul 27, 2016 8:38 pm

I ended up in this forum because I was trying to find price and availability for a Yasa P400 motor in Australia, so far without success. It looks like I'm not the first person to spend hours trying to get hold of a good high-end motor.

Right at the beginning, I thought a HPEVS AC51 would do the trick, then I discovered the range that is available... in theory. Yes I also worked my way through finding that nobody will sell me the GKN-EVO integrated eDrive, Emrax motors looked good but I can't find a controller that would give enough current, now I'm trying to make a Parker or Yasa work, but only if someone will actually sell one of them to me.

Back to it...

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by kiwiev » Jul 28, 2016 4:19 am

el_gallo_azul wrote:I ended up in this forum because I was trying to find price and availability for a Yasa P400 motor in Australia, so far without success. It looks like I'm not the first person to spend hours trying to get hold of a good high-end motor.

Right at the beginning, I thought a HPEVS AC51 would do the trick, then I discovered the range that is available... in theory. Yes I also worked my way through finding that nobody will sell me the GKN-EVO integrated eDrive, Emrax motors looked good but I can't find a controller that would give enough current, now I'm trying to make a Parker or Yasa work, but only if someone will actually sell one of them to me.

Back to it...

Try Brett at solar online Newcastle he is a Parker agent also AMR as well make sure you take your cheque book $$$$$

Cheers Kiwi

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 28, 2016 9:28 am

jonescg this will change in time. We just need more people producing them.

I am interested in working on something with you. I think we can get someone to help design it and we can get the cost down. The challenge is when you make 1 of something there is a lot of hand built parts as well tooling up on difference CNCs and what not. Its like anything aluminum if you make 1 piston its like $600 but to get 20 made its like $750 for all of them. Because the setup time is most of the work.

If you are interested I think we can look at getting a group buy going we can make something super cool happen!
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Farfle » Jul 28, 2016 11:14 am

I would be down for helping with the design. We need a 200ish kw peak motor for our racecar so that we can ditch this leaky POS remy thats on it. We have a pretty baller CNC at farasis now too, so anything is fair game.
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Jul 29, 2016 7:55 pm

Even just copying the design of the Evo motor would be great. I seriously cannot fault it, and the power weight and thermal headroom is perfect.
Since I will be building another Voltron frame with an Evo motor in mind, getting a copy of it made makes sense.
Thanks for the thread reminder Arlin!

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Jul 29, 2016 8:23 pm

el_gallo_azul wrote:I ended up in this forum because I was trying to find price and availability for a Yasa P400 motor in Australia, so far without success. It looks like I'm not the first person to spend hours trying to get hold of a good high-end motor.

Right at the beginning, I thought a HPEVS AC51 would do the trick, then I discovered the range that is available... in theory. Yes I also worked my way through finding that nobody will sell me the GKN-EVO integrated eDrive, Emrax motors looked good but I can't find a controller that would give enough current, now I'm trying to make a Parker or Yasa work, but only if someone will actually sell one of them to me.

Back to it...

I know a guy with a YASA in Australia who's keen to sell - if you read this thread (and I didn't for 6 months :)) send me a PM and I'll put you in touch.

I'm still sure someone would sell an Evo motor in the UK if you put the money on the table, but it really makes you want to belt one out locally.

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Samd » Aug 04, 2016 9:18 pm

Jonesy I have several ideas on making this work with machinery here in Oz - will you be in Newcastle next week?
Making this offshore makes no sense.
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Aug 04, 2016 10:29 pm

Nah, no Newcastle for me. I'll be in Sydney in a months time for eFXC though.

We'll need a lamination stamper for the axial flux motors; doubt anyone in Oz will have one of them, but getting the lams made elsewhere isn't the end of the world.

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by kiwifiat » Aug 05, 2016 1:40 am

jonescg wrote:Nah, no Newcastle for me. I'll be in Sydney in a months time for eFXC though.

We'll need a lamination stamper for the axial flux motors; doubt anyone in Oz will have one of them, but getting the lams made elsewhere isn't the end of the world.
I'm 100% certain there is a company in Australia that has the gear for axial flux stator stamping. I recall reading about it in a phd thesis years ago, I'll try to track it down and report back.
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 05, 2016 1:57 am


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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by jonescg » Aug 05, 2016 2:11 am

My original thread referring to the patent docs on the AFM-140:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=51702

And the thesis referred to earlier (I suspect):
https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream ... sitory.pdf

Heat transfer stuff:
https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk:8443/bits ... 0model.pdf

Great reading!

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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by kiwifiat » Aug 05, 2016 10:59 pm

amberwolf wrote:Probably no what you're after, but:

http://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/8/12/12421/pdf

http://ncesr.unl.edu/wordpress/wp-conte ... l-Flux.pdf

the latter mentions this companny
http://www.fasco.com/about/
Well done Amberwolf, it is indeed Fasco Australia and it was in the doctoral thesis of Jessica Colton "A Case Study in Axial Flux Permanent Magnet Machine Design" that I first read about Fasco Australia. There is also an Adelaide University spin-off company in Adelaide that makes SMC cores so Australia certainly has the manufacturing technology required.
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Re: High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 06, 2016 1:26 am

Kinda funny...I just googled "company in Australia that has the gear for axial flux stator stamping", found a few things, started taking out the inbetween words and then got those results. :)

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High end motors - priced out of existence?

Post by Samd » Aug 06, 2016 6:19 pm

Fasco is a supplier to me in my day job. I know the particular machine well as it does a lot of spring clips for auto supply.

But they only do conventional blanking, not fine blanking which punches from both sides.

But the more I think about it I don't think blanking of any sort can compete with a cnc/stepper indexed waterjet.

I know the steel suppliers really well too. Jonesy did you say high silica content? I am assuming a crystalline structure better manages the induced emf?


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