TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

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TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by lester12483 » Apr 04, 2017 7:34 pm

Elon Musk has built an historic company. Pretty remarkable given all the naysayers.


"Tesla Inc on Tuesday morning surpassed General Motors Co as the most valuable U.S. auto firm.

In late morning trade, Tesla had a market capitalization of $52.7 billion compared with $49.6 billion for GM.

Tesla on Monday said it delivered a record 25,000 electric vehicles in the first quarter. It plans to begin production this summer of the mass-market Model 3 sedan.

http://www.reuters.com/article/autos-te ... SL3N1HC2QI
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Hillhater » Apr 04, 2017 8:42 pm

If you consider that GM sold over 700,000 vehicles (US only) in the same quarter that Tesla sold 25,000,....
You would have to ask if Musk is making the best use of all this capital ?
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by lester12483 » Apr 05, 2017 10:21 am

Tesla's​ value is based in future performance and future technologies such as the Powerwall and Hyperloop. Plus, Musk has the ear of the President and is on his technology advising team. GM only builds cars.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Hillhater » Apr 05, 2017 4:49 pm

Hyperloop is a separate company, independently financed. ..( as is Space X)
Tesla inc, is cars, battery packs, and Solar .( powerwall is based on existing technology, not unique to Tesla.and possibly even superceed !)
GM is not "just cars" , it has quite a few separate business's operating under its control.
Im a big fan of Tesla products, and what they are doing for the automotive and battery industries.
Tesla may currently be the hottest thing in the "big end" of town (investors), but its also one of the biggest risk stocks .
And again, who is making the best use of that capital, and who is generating the most return for the country, taxs, employment, international trade, etc etc ?
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 05, 2017 6:23 pm

Hillhater wrote:If you consider that GM sold over 700,000 vehicles (US only) in the same quarter that Tesla sold 25,000,....
You would have to ask if Musk is making the best use of all this capital ?
Whatever company that isnt all-in on EVs and hasn't built a fast charge network already has already signed its own death-certificate moving forward into a future that is inevitably pure EV.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Hillhater » Apr 05, 2017 7:55 pm

..You know the "future" never comes ?.... :wink:
If GM switched to be "all in" on EV's , it would have a much quicker death than not changing at all, as the market could not adsorb their production capacity, and they would have unsellable product ( remember the Volt oversupply ?)
and besides we all know it would be impossible for the industry to impliment such a change.
GM , Ford, Toyota, etc, all have an EV programms, and obviously we all have our views on how much better they might be, but they have to keep production aimed at supplying the market requirements,..products they can sell...if they want to remain in business at all to see any future.
Change will come, but it will be dictated by market forces rather than idealistic concepts
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 05, 2017 9:11 pm

GM has over supplies because the products are designed to be uninspired appliances.

Tesla has the opposite problem, over demand and under production, but they are addressing this at a level of scale and automation adequate to meet demand.

One is a dying old regime and one is a rising star positioned to remain relevant and domimate.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by TheBeastie » Apr 06, 2017 12:47 am

Watching some EVinsiders video on YouTube last month they summed up the car industry by saying that by about the end of 2018 every major car maker will have an all-electric offering.
Will be interesting to see the value of Teslas stock then.

Tesla really is the ultimate example of this famous quote.
“In the short run, the market is a voting machine but in the long run, it is a weighing machine.”
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/831517- ... ng-machine

Using Google financial you can bring up the craziness of it all..
Tesla lost 773million dollars in the last year which is about above better then normal for its whole history. While companies of equal value like Ford and GM made 9 billion dollars, thats 9,000million...
And there is no logical reason why Tesla will start making money soon with its $35,000 Model 3, logically it will be sold at a loss as well.
https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ ... 0AT0tL6IBQ
Tesla is a great example of the awesome power of of just folks just liking a product/clueless investors/massively distributed risk.

I guess I should point out that Tesla does regular capital raisings, where new shares are created for investors to buy which dilute the value of the existing shares, its been frequently pointed out that Tesla likes to do relatively small capital raisings each time, possibly to lighten the stock price drop when done to less sophisticated investors/share holders. This essentially becomes free money to Tesla unlike bank loans, as long as folks continue to bid up the price of the stock the diluted value of the shares get repaired. Saying they are putting money back into expansion with their own money/earnings is a dubious claim because they always record a loss.

Tesla Motors has raised $1.46 billion in fresh capital from the sale of its 6.8 million new common stock offering
http://fortune.com/2016/05/20/tesla-finance-production/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveschae ... 2b996d6246

I know I am sounding all negative but I am just pointed to figures here.. Its a pretty fascinating reality to look at.. But I think I have deliberately decided to be critical of Musk since that death of an owner in his self driving Tesla, someone dying due to a Tesla vehicle that couldn't deal with slightly changing road conditions and still have folks in general want to suck Musks junk off is just going all too far for me. Its the same but inversed for me sticking up for the nuclear boogeyman, someones got to do it.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Dauntless » Apr 06, 2017 1:16 am

liveforphysics wrote:GM has over supplies because the products are designed to be uninspired appliances.
'Uninspired applicances' is such a great expression. But then that's what the best selling car in history was. The Beetle. Then there's the car it surpassed, the Model T. Yet people really were inspired even if the cars weren't.

Speaking of Volkswagen: There were once the world's most valuable company. They closed on a Friday with the largest market cap in history, only to plunge the following Monday. It has all been a mistake, probably another software glitch in a world where Wall Street let's the computer make billions of dollars in decisions every day. Currently Tesla is under a 'Sell' recommendation, the theory is that it's 'Overbought,' therefore not worth the price. Time will tell.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Chalo » Apr 06, 2017 1:20 am

Lithium will probably become a limiting factor before Tesla gets a shot at making good on its market cap. Let's all hope they have some other technological aces up their sleeve.

If you're going to make billions of anything, that thing must be made of ubiquitous materials. And the industrial externalities will necessarily be ugly. Petroleum has run its course, but there's no real indication that electric batteries can scale sufficiently to replace it. Generating capacity is another issue, which is probably easier in the big picture.

Sooner or later we're going to have to get used to the idea that it's inappropriate to use thousands of pounds of vehicle to transport a couple hundred pounds of nincompoop. How much self-harm we inflict while getting there is up to us.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 06, 2017 2:48 am

Lithium has never been a remotely volume limiting factor or significant cost in lithium batts. Cobalt could be a limiter, but next gen batts use less to none.

When people do financial reports and say Tesla is -$700M or whatever, its because Tesla reinvests in the EV support infrastructure for mfg and customer charging and more.

When GM or another company shows today selling ICE cars has profit today, its doesn't change that an aware informed consumer would already reject every ICE product on moral/ethical grounds and because any system who's use contributes to the poisoning of the single life support system is a false economy at any price/profit. Every dollar GM or any OEM spends on ICE tech or fuel-cells is less useful than if they had simply burned the cash. What Tesla puts its money into is securing its vertically integrated supply chain for total market domination moving forward.

ICE cars will never have been better at any point in history than when the dealer cant give them away anymoee at any price because an self-respecting and life-respecting consumer will choose EV only, and ICE has nothing in the bounds of physics possible to ever become relivant again.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Harold in CR » Apr 06, 2017 7:29 am

I don't see how anyone can compare Tesla to GM-Ford-Chrysler, when Tesla sells to customers/drivers while the Big 3 sell ? to parking lots all over the world called dealerships. These 3 all started when there were a LOT less people and materials were cheaper, and have grown through the YEARS. Tesla jumped into the deep end of the pool , and, as LFP pointed out, Tesla is ploughing it's income back into its infrastructure to create from scratch more manufacturing space and equipment.

Sure, Tesla received Gov't money, but, paid it all back before due dates, while GM spread the money to their execs and then gave the same Gov't a big chunk of their crappy company as payment.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Ianhill » Apr 06, 2017 7:36 am

Only now do we have the giga factory that runs on solar, We must remember oil was burned to create th factory and it's panels plus the car then plugs into a grid mixed with clean and dirty energy to charge.

As much as we hate ice and fossil fuels we need them too, If we stopped production of all gas guzzlers then it would be like moving into a house when you have only now layed the footings.

We still use oil and fossil fuels to recycle, power, and transport most of the world so tesla may have some market share but the percentage is minimal to say it's larger than GM is a false hood when company's like them notoriously hide thier assets and capital to limit tax affairs.

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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by mrzed » Apr 07, 2017 11:50 pm

I'm surprised there is no mention in this thread that tesla's value is not just that of a car company but a big data company. Every model s and x out there is gathering what is likely by far the most comprehensive database on real world driving conditions and telemetry, providing tesla with a big advantage in the self driving future. Their hardware engineering is second to none, but can be copied. Their software and data, not so much.

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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 08, 2017 12:31 am

mrzed wrote:I'm surprised there is no mention in this thread that tesla's value is not just that of a car company but a big data company. Every model s and x out there is gathering what is likely by far the most comprehensive database on real world driving conditions and telemetry, providing tesla with a big advantage in the self driving future. Their hardware engineering is second to none, but can be copied. Their software and data, not so much.
Already having a useful power charging network installed in the ground, and designed around being upgradable is tremendously huge advantage as well.
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Warren » Apr 08, 2017 8:57 am

liveforphysics,

"Already having a useful power charging network installed in the ground, and designed around being upgradable is tremendously huge advantage as well."

Yes. That is a huge advantage. Second is having, probably, over a quarter million solid orders for the Model 3. That alone will make them the number one EV maker for a long time. If they can actually start shipping those pre-orders by September, they will be able to book every one they can build as sold for several years. Meanwhile, the Bolt and Leaf 2 will be discounting like mad, trying to interest soccer moms in remembering one more thing to plug in.

I am, personally, rooting for the Bolt. I love that car. It is a great hot hatch for the suburbs. But the sales, so far, are abysmal.

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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by lester12483 » May 13, 2017 5:48 pm

Elon Musk is also working on The Boring Company. It digs tunnels under cities for transportation. A remarkable Idea!
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Re: TESLA JUST PASSED GM AS THE MOST VALUABLE CAR COMPANY

Post by Chalo » May 13, 2017 11:42 pm

lester12483 wrote:Elon Musk is also working on The Boring Company. It digs tunnels under cities for transportation. A remarkable Idea!
I've thought for a long time that a good solution for problems caused by the Interstate Highway passing through the middle of my town would be to direct its traffic into a tunnel... and direct the tunnel to hell. Maybe I can interest Mr. Musk in my idea.
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