Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

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Deepkimchi
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by Deepkimchi » Apr 27, 2008 5:20 am

Was there any problem with using these instead of 4110 Fets?

Risson presented these on page 15 but nobody made a comment..

http://www.st.com/stonline/products/lit ... 80ne10.pdf

Have great screw connectors instead of the spindly legs.

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Motor: 5304 Crystalyte rear mount
Controller: Crystalyte 72V 40A
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by fechter » Apr 27, 2008 9:37 am

Deepkimchi wrote:Was there any problem with using these instead of 4110 Fets?

Risson presented these on page 15 but nobody made a comment..

http://www.st.com/stonline/products/lit ... 80ne10.pdf

Have great screw connectors instead of the spindly legs.

DK
Looks like it would work if you can figure out where to stuff them inside the box.
As I recall, those are very expensive too.
I'm also not sure about the gate drive requirements. It says 21nF input capacitance, which would be much more than a 4110, but it might be OK.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by disadvantage » May 06, 2008 9:45 am

Deepkimchi wrote:Risson presented these on page 15 but nobody made a comment..

http://www.st.com/stonline/products/lit ... 80ne10.pdf

Have great screw connectors instead of the spindly legs.
Ooh, I missed that post. Those are a good find.

Thank you for remembering that post!

Edit: $40 bucks each @ mouser.com -- ouch!
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDet ... 0kWg%3d%3d

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » May 07, 2008 3:25 am

better have deep pockets too. minimum order is 34pcs @ $40 ea = $1360
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fading power

Post by rf » May 27, 2008 8:04 pm

My acceleration often fades momentarily while powering up a hill. Power fades several times going through about 15 or 20mph. The fade lasts for less than a second. I'm pushing my controller a bit and I'm wondering if I've damaged it. It's still quite reliable. And never gets more than warm (it's well ventilated.) But I live up a steep 2-mile hill that takes about 6 minutes to climb.

I have a Crystalyte 48-volt, 20amp controller that I use with an A123, 20s4p pack. I've overridden the 20amp limit on the controller and set my CycleAnalyst's current limiter to 28amps. The mosfets in the controller are IRF2807s, rated
at 75-volts which seems sufficient for the roughly 66-volts the pack produces. I just switched from a Crystalyte 408 motor to a 5304. I'm pretty sure the fading was happening with the smaller motor too, just less pronounced.

Do I need a heftier controller or mosfet replacements or something?

Richard

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by HAL9000v2.0 » May 28, 2008 3:54 am

Jozzer wrote:Hi all, i'm just repairing a dual motor controller, that appears to use the 20A miniboard (6 fets). Although the controller appears to work OK, the motor wont spin up from all positions. Sometimes it spins, other times you have to roll it back to make it fire up. Any idea's?
Thanks:)
Steve
I replaced, in my 20A36-72V immediate start cristalyte controller, original fets with 4110, solderd shunt up to 30A and add this Amp controller pot. Same thing happens. Wont start from all positions. I have to turn it two "clicks" ahead or back to start. Funny thing is than when motor will not start I hit reverse switch (also installed) and motor start reversing. Also in some positions wont start in reverse then turn off reverse switch and it starts fine forward.
Second thing that it have no power on zero speed I have to push it to 0,1km/h (just a little) to start. There are all three fazes and all three halls working. I have check Hals on board.
:?:

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 05, 2008 12:00 pm

I just upgraded a batch of the 35/40A controllers and i am finding the same problem with some of the controllers ( about half of them) they work fine when i test on the bench using a small motor. but hook them up to a new X5 crystalyte motor they will not start from all positions.

the motor hall sensors work. the motor works well with a couple of the controllers but not all of them.

i am confused.

rick
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by fechter » Jun 05, 2008 12:41 pm

rkosiorek wrote:I just upgraded a batch of the 35/40A controllers and i am finding the same problem with some of the controllers ( about half of them) they work fine when i test on the bench using a small motor. but hook them up to a new X5 crystalyte motor they will not start from all positions.

the motor hall sensors work. the motor works well with a couple of the controllers but not all of them.

i am confused.

rick
Not starting from all positions means you're not firing on all phases. At least on of the 6 FET switches is not switching.

It sounds like one of the gate drivers is not working. If the halls are all working and none of the FETs are shorted, then I would guess a driver blew. You'd need to measure the voltage on the FET gates to see if they are switching. On the low side FETs, measure gate to ground. On the high side FETs measure gate to phase wire. A multimeter in the AC mode should read 10-12vac or so. A scope would be better. If the reading is under 5vac, I say it's dead. It's possible the signal that drives the gate driver is also gone. A blown MCU could do this.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 05, 2008 1:31 pm

then why would they all be firing when used with the small motor. it runs like a champ. these controllers were brand new. i tested them before modification with a 250W BMC motor. all was well. it will start from any position. unfortunately i did not try the X5.

after i changed out the fets they still work with the BMC Motor. it is just that they will not work with the X5 until i give it a little flick to get it started. once running it will run and all phases will fire.

if i disable one of the Hall sensors, i can get it to run by giving it a bit of a spin but it runs very rough. i have tried disabling all 3 sensors one at at time and no matter which one i disable it will run rough. all run the same.

i also tried this with a new unmodified controller that was pulled from stock. it works perfectly with the BMC but again it will not start the X5. if i give the X5 a little flick it will start to run. even at very low RPM.

it just will not start on its own. it is as if the C1246 commutator cannot read the start position from the hall sensors. once it is started it will read the change in the hall status properly.

i really have to try to get a scope.

rick
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by The7 » Jun 05, 2008 3:57 pm

Rkosiorek
Wonder if you have connected the X5 with the best combination?

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 05, 2008 11:35 pm

i have 2 controllers that are identical and the X5 works perfectly with them. then there are these 2 where it is acting up. so i guess i do have the best combination.

rick
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by solarbbq2003 » Jun 06, 2008 7:39 am

might be a bad connection in the hall sensor connector on the controller playing up, fingers crossed

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by Ypedal » Jun 06, 2008 7:44 am

solarbbq2003 wrote:might be a bad connection in the hall sensor connector on the controller playing up, fingers crossed
What he said !! :lol:

Are those what i think they are ? :oops:
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 06, 2008 9:30 am

i have replaced the connectors and that did not solve the issue.

Yes Gaston, these are your controllers. more specifically the one modified for 80A is the one causing the most trouble.

rick
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 06, 2008 5:41 pm

I'm beginning to think that not all Hall Sensors are created equal. maybe the pull up resistors on the hall inputs are too high a value and do not load the sensor enough?

step one was to draw a schematic of the sensor inputs to the C1246 chip.
V1 - HALL SENSOR INPUT.jpg
Hall Sensor Inputs to C1246 Commutator chip.
V1 - HALL SENSOR INPUT.jpg (27.65 KiB) Viewed 1904 times
the inputs to the C1246 commutator chip are comparators. the (-) input of all three comparators are fed a reference voltage of approximately 5V. this reference is supplied by a voltage divider made up of R25 (10K) and R24 (4.7K). each of the inputs is held at 15V by an 18K pull up resistor. when the hall sensor is triggered it's output will pull the 18K resistor to ground and the output of the comparator should switch from 0V to 15V.

my thinking is that the 18K pull up may be too small of a load for some flavors of hall sensors and not produce a strong enough signal for the C1246 chip to recognize.

any thoughts?

rick

schematics edited 2008/06/06 to correct capacitor value as presented by The7 below
Attachments
V1 - HALL SENSOR INPUT.pdf
high res version
(12.26 KiB) Downloaded 94 times
Last edited by rkosiorek on Jun 07, 2008 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by The7 » Jun 06, 2008 6:47 pm

rkosiorek,
Are C6, C7 and C8 of 104 ( 0.1uF)?

Is so, the LP filter of 18k and 0.1uF will be 88Hz?
88Hz will be definitely too low as the LP frequency..

I don't see any problem in using 18k for R19, R20 and R21 as pull-up res.

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by The7 » Jun 06, 2008 9:25 pm

The7 wrote:rkosiorek,
Are C6, C7 and C8 of 104 ( 0.1uF)?

Is so, the LP filter of 18k and 0.1uF will be 88Hz?
88Hz will be definitely too low as the LP frequency..

I don't see any problem in using 18k for R19, R20 and R21 as pull-up res.
Estimation of C from the picture (using analog C-controller)

Freq = 135 Hz
Period = 1/135 = 7.4ms
Time for 1 cycle = 7.4 div
Then 0.25 div => 0.25ms
CR = 0.25ms
If R = 18K
Then C = 0.25m/18k = 0.014 uF

It seems that these C should be from 0.01uF to 0.015uF.
Attachments
DSCN7814 copyaa.jpg
DSCN7814 copyaa.jpg (44.58 KiB) Viewed 1881 times

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 07, 2008 2:14 pm

i tried measuring using the cap ranges on my multimeter while in circuit. shows how inaccurate that can be. out by a factor of 10.

thanks for the correction, The7. the schematics have been updated and the capacitor values have been corrected to 103.

rick
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 09, 2008 11:26 am

post deleted. info was inaccurate.
Last edited by rkosiorek on Jun 14, 2008 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 09, 2008 11:47 am

rkosiorek wrote:while modifying these controllers i also wanted to change the current limit. but i did not want to modify the shunt. so instead i changed R13 which is used to set the current limit.

i wanted to leave the shunt alone so that it would still work with the direct plug in Cycle-Analyst without having to re-program the unit for the changed shunt value.
R13-current limit.jpg
limit R13
35A - 360R
40A - 350R
50A - 335R
60A - 326R
70A - 314R
80A - 302R

the 35A and 40A values were taken from actual controllers. the other values were calculated. the 50A setup was tested and looks to be correct. the calculated 60A, 70A and 80A values should also be correct.

rick
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by magudaman » Jun 09, 2008 1:02 pm

I am repairing my controller once again with 4110 fets after blowing 4 of them from some sort of freak accident but wanted to know if I can test my controller using only one fet per phase. I talking wheel off the ground very low and slow throttle just to make sure nothing else blew with the fets went. Normally there is 2 fets per phase. Thanks
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by fechter » Jun 09, 2008 2:28 pm

magudaman wrote:I am repairing my controller once again with 4110 fets after blowing 4 of them from some sort of freak accident but wanted to know if I can test my controller using only one fet per phase. I talking wheel off the ground very low and slow throttle just to make sure nothing else blew with the fets went. Normally there is 2 fets per phase. Thanks
Yes, you can do that. As long as the current stays low it should be no problem. With the wheel off the ground, you can give it full throttle (slowly).
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 13, 2008 1:20 am

I wonder why people are talking about 18K 2W resistor for R2 and for a 18K for the R1..

my 72V 35A controller have a small smt 18k resistor for the R2... NOT a 2W !!

and theR1 is a 3k resistor of 2 or 3Watts... so... what is true?

i wonder that because i'm thinking about doing an upgrade to the 15V reguator section for the 100V upgrade of my controller.. any help to demistify the R1 and R2??

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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by fechter » Jun 13, 2008 9:17 am

The 18k feeding the zener is a small one, not 2w. I'm not sure about the other one. I can check later. What are you going to uppgrade?
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Re: Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Post by rkosiorek » Jun 14, 2008 10:47 am

you are right R1 is 3K 2 or 3W.

i'll have to check my schematics. i think that the one i posted for the V1 analog is actually the one for the 20A controller and not the 35/40A controller.

rick
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