Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

[solarbbq2003]

i would try removing the diode shown in pic below, I haven't seen that diode on the speed control pin on any v2 controllers I've got from crystalyte, worth a shot, seem to work fine without it

mystery diode.jpg (55.85 KiB) Viewed 1566 times

[pwbset]

if you have a current limited power supply and a good meter, you can run an amp or two through the shunt on the controller, and you should find it is very close to a milliohm, inferred from the 1 mv/amp voltage drop across it. you can add solder until the voltage goes down to about 80% of the original value, then reprogram the cycle analyst with the new shunt value.

Is there any other way to calibrate a new Rshunt value for a CA after you've applied some solder to a couple of the legs? I don't have a current limited power supply and I'd like to modify my 72v/20a 4110 pedal first controller to 30-ish Amps, but I have no way of knowing what to calibrate my CA to afterwards (do I?). Currently my Rshunt value is 1.910 mohm. Is that even the correct setting to be modifying? I know as a noob I shouldn't even be attempting this, but we all have to start somewhere right? I'm already pushing my Milwaukee pack at 3s 84v/20amps with diodes and it's been awesome, but they are rated to 20a per pack I believe so in 2p I should be able to run them 25-30a no problem right?

Climbing a mountain every morning is still kicking my ass physically so I could you a few extra amps until I get in better shape.

[fechter]

Yes, the shunt resistance is how you calibrate the amp reading.

The only way to calibrate it is to either measure the shunt resistance or use a separate ammeter in series with the battery to make a measurement. Most DVM ammeter will fry at 10 amps or less, so it's better to use a meter with a higher rating.

You could possibly use a 10 amp meter and lift the wheel so the motor has no load or just use less throttle. Take a measurement with the ammeter, then note the reading on the CA at the same time. From there, you can do some math to calculate the shunt resistance. Once the CA is calibrated, the ammeter can be removed.
Perhaps you can borrow one if you don't have one.

[pwbset]

The only way to calibrate [the CA] it is to either measure the shunt resistance

The photo below doesn't reflect it, but I filled the space between the two shunts with solder. This is a Clyte 72v/20A controller from ebikes.ca. On my ride this morning I kept adjusting the CA Rshunt value lower and lower to try and get in the ball park of accuracy based on previous ride's data. I went from 1.910mohm, which was the stock reading as shipped to me, down to 1.1mohms after several ride adjustments and it still seems too high and isn't reporting high enough amp/hour usage and my max amp reading was 16A and should have been much higher than that during my 15% climbs.. at least double.. so I need to just take the time and calibrate a new value...

Last night though I attached a little homemade AA battery setup from a tip Justin posted and measured the two points in the photo below in mohms to get an Rshunt for my CA. Problem was that the reading skittered all over the place so I couldn't get a consistent number. .6 to 1.7 to .9 etc. etc. Should I be putting my multimeter contact points as shown below or somewhere else? Thanks for any tips.

rojoshunt.jpg (62.28 KiB) Viewed 1250 times

[fechter]

I suppose your multimeter should go to the same spots where the CA is going to connect. It should be on the copper (scrape off some of the green stuff to get a good connection).

[mikereidis]

My controller is 72v, 20a, pedal first Crystalyte sold by ebikes 1 month ago. Is it v1 ? :

bikedctrlr 004.jpg

(246.33 KiB) Downloaded 431 times

I want to convert this controller to instant start if possible.

The empty connector near R26 seems to be for brake switch motor cutoff. Is it ?

The 3 holes in corner of board look like they are hall sensor connections because they go to what looks like commutator chip with the correct pins. I'm hoping I can hook my hall sensors to these 3 connectors, add ground and as suitable voltage source for halls (like same source as for throttle.)

Has anybody done this or have any insights to offer ?


Thanks,... !

[docnjoj]

What about Knuckles/Keywin new add on board that replaces the Halls with a feedback starting method? I dont know if it can be added to Crystalyte.
otherDoc

[fechter]

I think he wants to do the opposite.

I've never seen one of those controllers first hand. It would be v1 of sorts.

Look on the board and see if there is a 16 pin chip marked C1246. That's the commutator chip used on the immediate start controller. If it has one, then there should be a way. I've never fully traced out the hall sensor input circuit, so I don't have a schematic of that part (it may be posted earlier in this thread?).

[solarbbq2003]

does that board have a manufacturer name or any markings on it?

[mikereidis]

What about Knuckles/Keywin new add on board that replaces the Halls with a feedback starting method? I dont know if it can be added to Crystalyte.
otherDoc

I read that thread but can't find it now. If it produces simulated hall sensor outputs, it's no good for me (unless my halls are bad.) I might as well run my halls to my hall inputs, if I need hall inputs anyway. What's that board do exactly again ? Thread ?

[mikereidis]

I think he wants to do the opposite.

I've never seen one of those controllers first hand. It would be v1 of sorts.

Look on the board and see if there is a 16 pin chip marked C1246. That's the commutator chip used on the immediate start controller. If it has one, then there should be a way. I've never fully traced out the hall sensor input circuit, so I don't have a schematic of that part (it may be posted earlier in this thread?).

From my post on the V2 controller thread: Those 3 holes on lower left look like place to attach 3 hall wires. Underneath there is a 16 pin chip that I'm guessing is upc1246 commutator. I can only see "6G" or maybe "6C" ? at end of chip number. Those 3 holes: 1 goes to pins 1 and 4, 1 to 3 and 6 and other probably to 2 and 5 so it looks like commutator chip there.

So if I can figure out the right wiring for 3 hall sensors, I just add ground and some suitable voltage point, presumably another hole near these 3, or same voltage as throttle ?

Here's the response I got from ebikes Justin:

I've never heard of anyone converting a PF to an Instant
Start model. Depending on how the board was designed it could be as
simple as attaching the 3 hall signal lines, but that isn't too
likely. If you reverse engineer the layout and figure out how the
commutation timing circuit is implemented then you could come up with
a hack that drives the phase decoder chip from the hall lines instead,
and if it is indeed using an actual hall decoder commutator chip then
this might not be that difficult, and would be a neat feat.

So maybe I'll be the first to try this mod. I'm pretty sure it's possible now. Those 3+ holes ARE there for hall sensors and I suspect there is an instant start version of this board; I just have to figure out wiring and hope it just works without messing with any jumpers for mode select.


SolarBBQ:
This IS a Crystalyte controller, bought from ebikes 1 month ago. 72v, 20a, pedal first. Sort of an oddball in the lineup IMO, because it's a 72v unit but only rated for 20 amps ? Seems funny to have 12 4110 fets but only 20a limit.

No clear markings I could really see. Will check much closer next weekend when I pull the controller and try to add this mod.

[rkosiorek]

it is indeed an older V1 20A pedal first controller. i don't have one of those handy here to confirm what i suspect.

i think that the early pedal first controllers lack an item crucial to implementing a sensored controller in a simple way. they don't have a commutation chip to decode the rotor position and translate that to the drive signals. instead that is performed by some discrete analog chips and transistors.

the chip that i am thinking of is the C1246 chip. and it exists on the V1 20A and 40A controllers. it is in a surface mount SOIC-16 package. check to see if you have one of those on the board. if there is one than there is an easy place to connect the hall sensors to the controller and bypass the BEMF circuits. if it isn't there then the question of how to connect the hall sensors becomes much more complicated..

rick

[rkosiorek]

V1 20A start immediate controller.

DSCN0912.JPG (109.24 KiB) Viewed 965 times

this is a picture of the start immediate controller. i left the Hall Sensor wires connected. there is little similarity between this and the pedal-first controller in the previous pictures.

rick

[pwbset]

SolarBBQ:
This IS a Crystalyte controller, bought from ebikes 1 month ago. 72v, 20a, pedal first. Sort of an oddball in the lineup IMO, because it's a 72v unit but only rated for 20 amps ? Seems funny to have 12 4110 fets but only 20a limit.

These pedal first 20A controllers only have 6 4110s in them. I completely soldered my shunt and am seeing 55-60A spikes in the CA with 40ish sustained (which is all by battery pack is good for sustained wired 2p) and the controller is vibrating like crazy under full throttle until it gets up to speed. Don't expect it to last long, but I'm sure having fun in the meantime.

[mikereidis]

DSCN0912.JPG

this is a picture of the start immediate controller. i left the Hall Sensor wires connected. there is little similarity between this and the pedal-first controller in the previous pictures.

rick

Thanks rick ! That's almost exactly my board, except yours has a few extra connectors where mine only has holes for the non-existent connectors. I presume corner connector is halls, and next is brake switch controller kill. If you could PM me or post any other high-res pictures or pinout diagrams etc. you have, I would very much appreciate it. Looking for color coding on hall sensor plug mostly right now.

[mikereidis]

it is indeed an older V1 20A pedal first controller. i don't have one of those handy here to confirm what i suspect.

i think that the early pedal first controllers lack an item crucial to implementing a sensored controller in a simple way. they don't have a commutation chip to decode the rotor position and translate that to the drive signals. instead that is performed by some discrete analog chips and transistors.

the chip that i am thinking of is the C1246 chip. and it exists on the V1 20A and 40A controllers. it is in a surface mount SOIC-16 package. check to see if you have one of those on the board. if there is one than there is an easy place to connect the hall sensors to the controller and bypass the BEMF circuits. if it isn't there then the question of how to connect the hall sensors becomes much more complicated..

rick

Yes, the 1246 is there, underneath the board, properly wired to the hall sensor holes where a connector is on that immediate start board. I think both boards are virtually the same. Hmm, with immediate start controller, can it do pedal first if halls are disconnected ? If someone could confirm that works, then I'm pretty sure no jumpers are on the board to cut or install.

I'm too excited now and will try this mod tonight. Getting REALLY tired of turning bike down on a hill (When one of my batts BMS trips uphill) and swinging back up to restart.

[ngocthach1130]

Guys, I have the new white board V2 controller. I upgraded to irf4110 and 200v caps long ago. Recently i upped it to 100v battery source. Ran fine for a little while. The other day while up the hill, I popped a capacitor.
It was the C8 capacitor at the bottom edge of the board with the fets on the top edge. what is that capacitor and what is the value so i can replace it. Also a trace from the C12 capacitor leading to a surface mount part close to the fets is blown. It the copper trace broke but could be mended with a drop of solder. Controller still run...Weird. Should i be worry?

[mikereidis]

SolarBBQ:
This IS a Crystalyte controller, bought from ebikes 1 month ago. 72v, 20a, pedal first. Sort of an oddball in the lineup IMO, because it's a 72v unit but only rated for 20 amps ? Seems funny to have 12 4110 fets but only 20a limit.

These pedal first 20A controllers only have 6 4110s in them. I completely soldered my shunt and am seeing 55-60A spikes in the CA with 40ish sustained (which is all by battery pack is good for sustained wired 2p) and the controller is vibrating like crazy under full throttle until it gets up to speed. Don't expect it to last long, but I'm sure having fun in the meantime.

Mine has 12. 6 on top and 6 on bottom. Unless there are 6 other FET looking things there, but I doubt it, and board traces tell me they are probably FETs. I can't see numbers too easy. I'm wondering if there is a 35 or 40+a version of this board with nothing different except current shunt. 1 board makes for lower production and inventory costs, even if the extra FETs cost a few bucks in volume.

I'm still REALLY surprised a 20a controller has twelve 4110 FETs. I imagine it should be easy to run this at 30-40a with only a shunt mod.

[pwbset]

Mine has 12.

I got mine just this past May? Sure looks the same as yours. I most definitely only have 6 FETs.

DSCN3709.JPG (121.79 KiB) Viewed 2205 times

[mikereidis]

Mine has 12.

I got mine just this past May? Sure looks the same as yours. I most definitely only have 6 FETs.

I got mine one month ago from ebikes for $145 + gst + shipping. They didn't and still don't seem to have the immediate start version of this controller. C7220PF http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/C7220PF.jpg They seem to have some in stock again now: 8 allegedly.

Aren't these 6 additional FETs under the board? Yes, there is a voltage reg or something sandwiched on top of left FET and something on right FET.

Here's a side view. Screw on right is or first FET with VReg (?) sandwiched on top. That's the commutator chip you see under the board there.

Screw at left is for rightmost of these 6 FETS:

[mikereidis]

I connected the hall sensor lines, and powered the halls with 5 volts, since that's what the spec sheet seems to recommend.

Immediate start did not work. When pedal start engaged, the motor made a few noises but wouldn't spin. I disconnected the 5 volt supply and it returned to normal pedal first.

I'm thinking there must be (a) jumper(s) or resistors to cut or something. I'm thinking the motor 3 phases (at FET connection) are conditioned and fed to commutator. This would explain my 7 KMH pedal first start speed perhaps, since my motor should generate about 5 volts at that speed.

So I think I just have to interrupt the back EMF signals from the motor. Clearly, this board was designed to be usable for PF and IS. So I know this is probably possible, IMO.

[rkosiorek]

you probably have to remove the 6 resistors used for the BEMF sensing. they would be confusing the hall sensors. not sure but i would suspect that the resistors are the neat group of 6 resistors placed on the left edge of the board just below the big capacitor.

the hall sensors would also need a pull up resistor to the 12V supply going to the chip. on my IS controller these resistors are 18K.

since you are the only one with a board could you trace out the schematic of the pin connections going to pins 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 of the C1246 chip. pin 1 and 2 are used for the yellow hall, 3 and 4 for the green and 5, 6 for the blue.

rick

[fechter]

It's hard to see on the v.1 board I have, but it looks like the hall sensors go to pins 2,3, and 6 on the commutator chip. Pins 1, 4, and 5 seem to be tied to something else (?).

Correct about removing the BEMF sensing resistors. The hall signals need pull-up resistors to the Vcc of the commutator, which would be pin 8. I think it would work if they were pulled up by the +5v supply too.

Here's a picture of an immediate start 20 amp board (from somewhere else on the forum). This is what you want to copy...

20A controller top side.jpg (108.13 KiB) Viewed 2145 times

20A controller bottom side.jpg (96.67 KiB) Viewed 1830 times

[docnjoj]

Richard! What are the 2 empty sockets for? (white male 2 pin and 3 pin)
otherDoc

[rkosiorek]

the hall sensor schematic is identical to the one used for the 40A version. just the identifying Rx and Cx numbers are different. so here is a copy of the schematic for the hall inputs of the 40A version. the capacitor values are a guess and probably wrong. i also could not see the identifying numbers for the parts.

40A hall input section. same as 20A EXCEPT Rx and Cx numbers different. also Caps marked 104 are probably a lower value

V1 - HALL SENSOR INPUT.jpg (27.65 KiB) Viewed 2134 times

V1 - HALL SENSOR INPUT.pdf

40A hall input section. same as 20A EXCEPT Rx and Cx numbers different. also Caps marked 104 are probably a lower value

(12.26 KiB) Downloaded 125 times

pins 1,4 and 5 are connected to a voltage divider to set the trip point of the sensors. the inputs for each sensor go to a comparator built into the C1246

Here is the layout of the board connectors:

DSCN0912.JPG (94.93 KiB) Viewed 1816 times

and what i suspect are the BEMF resistor dividers. at least they look to be connected to the phase outputs.

bikedctrlr 004.jpg

(112.52 KiB) Downloaded 425 times

rick