Version 2 Crystalyte Controller information

[solarbbq2003]

big mistake guys and gals, regen does work at 86volt!! my mistake I didn't have the wire for abs connected, whoops!
I'll test what voltage it produces if its going to be too high for the fets,
also something quite odd: after power turned off if measure voltage across positive and negative wires ( positive batt terminal not connected to batteries), there is a voltage being giving out by controller starts about 17volts and slowly rises even though no power being applied to controller, only watched it for a few minutes but it was rising, guessing something to do with the caps, no idea really.
but happy to report there is no 60v cut off on the regen seems to be ok on higher voltages.

[solarbbq2003]

regen on 86volt with v2
seems to work fine no load conditions, wheel off the ground, was a little delay before regen kicked in, not immediate, but only a small delay . Measured voltage of pack at start was 82.4 volt ( cobalt lithiums( 30ahr), not fully charged, fully charged is up around 86volt), motor was x5303 , no load max rpm with v2 was 978rpm ( measured with hand held dig. tacho), at max rpm battery voltage was 80.8volt, current drawn by x5 at no load was 6amps ( quite large).
When regen was engaged at max rpm, volts went up to 85volts ( good news no where near 100v max of the 4110 fets), though pack was not fully charged would expect a bit higher with fully charged pack, max amps back into batts ( very briefly was 16amps).
Appeared regen not working when did a road test, has anyone else had issues with the regen on v2? I might just have a bad connection somewhere.

[solarbbq2003]

just something might be of interest on flat road with v2 controller, 86v 35amp x5303 motor getting a bit over 50km/hr in 26" rim, slightdownhill will get up near 60km/hr ( its a three wheel vehicle quite a bit heavier than a pushbike) has a fairing/windscreen. I was expecting top speed on 35amp to be a bit higher than that.

[solarbbq2003]

at 82.4volt no load rpm of 978rpm in 26" rim equates to 121km/hr with v2
At 35amp with my 3 wheeler at 82volt getting a bit over 50km/hr in 26" rim on flat road with fairing, I can see why a huge amount of amps needed to get high speeds with x5.

[StevenR]

I just got my Cycle Analyst from oat.net (great deal - check out the selling and surplus area; he may still have some) but I can't seem to find anything that says where to wire it onto my controller (Yes, I tried the search function). It's the Crystalyte CT4840 controller - the V2, I believe. The board has RFW4850-V06 07-05-11on it. Everything I saw here has the green board, mine is white. eBikes doesn't have anything on their site that I can find. HELP!

[solarbbq2003]

Have been testing x5303 running on 86volt 35amp v2 controller, doing some road testing in three wheeled vehicle a bit heavier than standard bike, it has fairing. Top speed with wind behind trike and slight downhill was 79km/hr.
After reaching top speed starting going up a hill and got controller failure with obvious capacitor failure with lots of smoke, speed at time of failure was quite low maybe 15-20km/hr but under high load hill a bit steep.
Closer inspection showed:
1. the section of board that takes the high amp current along a track had blown ( I hadn't added a shunt wire to avoid that track will certainly be adding one)
2. track on circuit board going to big cap ( 100v 470uF) near fets turned brown had got hot ( will probably need beefing that up a bit also)
3. probably mosfet failure when high amp track has blown ( 4110 fets)
So I think you can probably say the v2 board as it comes from crystalyte is not going to handle 86v 35amp with x5 motor unless some mods are made. 86volt is fully charged 72volt lithium cobalt system. Shunt definitely needed to avoid high amp track on v2 board, possibly also higher voltage caps and higher uf caps needed also, but not sure if my capacitor failure might have been due to the high amp track on board failing.

86v35am79kmhr1.jpg (118.02 KiB) Viewed 1442 times

86v35am79kmhr1.jpg (118.02 KiB) Viewed 1442 times

[solarbbq2003]

found cause of failure, cap at bottom of pic above, my solder had broken, without that cap the 470uF blew, and probably then caused fets to blow, 2 fets damaged on middle phase, one high side one low side

[The7]

at 82.4volt no load rpm of 978rpm in 26" rim equates to 121km/hr with v2

At 35amp with my 3 wheeler at 82volt getting a bit over 50km/hr in 26" rim on flat road with fairing,

Have been testing x5303 running on 86volt 35amp v2 controller, Top speed with wind behind trike and slight downhill was 79km/hr.

86volt is fully charged 72volt lithium cobalt system

Some comments:
a) It seems that your 3 wheeler is of 26" rim!?

b)If so, at 50kmh top speed on flat (about 41% of no-load speed), the 3 wheeler is limited by the battery current limit of 35A.
The motor current could be about 2.4 times of the battery current (about 85 A).
And it will cause an high current ripple in these 100V capacitors (order of 85A)

c) If so, at 79kmh top speed on slightly downhill ( about 65% of no-load speed), the 3 wheeler is also limited by the battery current limit of 35A.
The motor current could be about 1.5 times the battery current (about 53A).
And it will cause an high current ripple in these 100V capacitors (order of 53A).

d) These high motor current and high current ripple will damage the weak tracks on the pcb board.

e) IMO. The damaged tracks caused open-circuit and the induced high voltage spikes (due to the motor inductance) damaged the FETs.

[solarbbq2003]

thanks for that , on this occasion when i looked at caps, it seems my dodgey soldering has come apart on one cap ( not related to temp or anything i think just vibration and a bad solder has started the failure process.
But you've brought up the interesting point of motor current can be higher than battery current, something I only recently became aware of, can you go further into how thats possible?

[The7]

But you've brought up the interesting point of motor current can be higher than battery current, something I only recently became aware of, can you go further into how thats possible?

Let us use an simple circuit for illustration.
.
The motor is simplified as an L and R as shown in the circuit B.
The switch SW is closed for X% in an period (duty cycle of X%) at the PWM frequency.

When the switch is closed, current I2 = current I1.
When the switch is open, I1=0.
But I2 is NOT zero and continues to flow in an decaying manner due to the inductance L through the freewheel diode D.

So the average value of the motor current I2 is greater than the average value of the battery current I1 over an period.

Hope this will be of some help.

[solarbbq2003]

thanks for that, intriguing, how do you reconcile higher amps in motor, with power out cant be bigger than power in?
also you think in future will be able to play with the higher amps in motor via programming controller chips?
my knowledge on inductance very poor i'm afraid I really dont understand how the inductance is allowing current to flow for a longer period ( any chance of a quick lesson on that??)
freewheel diode would be the inbuit diodes in the fets?

[solarbbq2003]

found some basic info on inductance, I'll do some reading up on it
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/inductor1.htm

[solarbbq2003]

this is interesting, just reading that an inductor ( the motor in this case ) and a capacitor ( the big and small caps protecting the fets) will set up an oscillating circuit.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/oscillator2.htm
Has anyone picked up these oscillations on an oscilliscope? I remember fetcher also mentioning oscillations by only having one driver resistor for a fet pair ( as in the V2) might also be due to inductor/capacitor setting up oscillations.
Also I see there is a formula for back emf so you could work out max back emf expected and would be able to predict what voltage caps needed for a given motor running on a given voltage/amps ( seems there is a constant in that formula might be hard to get that value though)

[solarbbq2003]

bmc 500watt first road test using v2 35amp 48volt
rim size just under 16" ( 15.5" outer dia) odd tyre used
top speed two passengers with 4 lots sla 14ahr batts approx 45km/hr ( 3 wheel vehicle)
hill climbing ability: pretty much anything!!
thanks wayne in south africa for testing
in 26" rim would give 26/15.5*45 = 75km/hr ( wind resistance will reduce top speed though)
26" rim testing hopefully soon, will post some results on torque/top speed when done, 86volt testing some time off still

[solarbbq2003]

sorry top speed in 15.5" rim was 40km/hr on 48v v2 with bmc500
makes 67km/hr in 26" rim ( yet to be tested)

[mikereidis]

b)If so, at 50kmh top speed on flat (about 41% of no-load speed), the 3 wheeler is limited by the battery current limit of 35A.
The motor current could be about 2.4 times of the battery current (about 85 A).
And it will cause an high current ripple in these 100V capacitors (order of 85A)

c) If so, at 79kmh top speed on slightly downhill ( about 65% of no-load speed), the 3 wheeler is also limited by the battery current limit of 35A.
The motor current could be about 1.5 times the battery current (about 53A).
And it will cause an high current ripple in these 100V capacitors (order of 53A).

I'm curious to know what formulas or info you used to conclude 2.4 x or 1.5 x battery current. I have an electronics engineering degree from 1984, but little recent experience, especially with 3 phase motors.

Inductor is sort of like a backwards capacitor. But I don't see how to get more than battery voltage with a batt and a capacitor, unless it's somehow switched between multiple capacitors like in an AC voltage multiplying circuit.


I'm looking to try and build an electric brake for my 404 on a XLyte 72v, 20a, PF. In theory I think it's as simple as one 100w light bulb and a switch on 2 phase wires. Ideally, 3 bulbs and a DPST push button for 3 phase smoothness. Add more lights and a dimmer for variable braking. (Could it REALLY be that simple?) Add a 3phase bridge rectifier and some other stuff for batt regen.

I'm presuming that using this e-brake will waste power if brake is on and throttle is on at same time, but nothing will probably blow. Of course, best to use with throttle off, with a brake switch.

[The7]

b)If so, at 50kmh top speed on flat (about 41% of no-load speed), the 3 wheeler is limited by the battery current limit of 35A.
The motor current could be about 2.4 times of the battery current (about 85 A).
And it will cause an high current ripple in these 100V capacitors (order of 85A)

c) If so, at 79kmh top speed on slightly downhill ( about 65% of no-load speed), the 3 wheeler is also limited by the battery current limit of 35A.
The motor current could be about 1.5 times the battery current (about 53A).
And it will cause an high current ripple in these 100V capacitors (order of 53A).

I'm curious to know what formulas or info you used to conclude 2.4 x or 1.5 x battery current.

Please ref to the circuit B in the previous post.
The circuit B with the inductance acts an buck convertor which could reduce the effective dc voltage V2. But the effective current I2 is larger than I1.

For PWM duty cycle of 41%
V2 = Vbattery x 0.41
I2 = I1/0.41 = I1x2.4 (for the very large inductive effect).

Please note that these figures are very rough approximation to illustrate the effect of inductance in the motor on the motor current when using PWM switching.

Exact motor current I2 has to be determined from the exponential increase (during ON) and exponential decrease (during OFF) of the motor current for a period of the PWM frequecncy with the all known circuit elements and parmeters: L, R, PWM frequency and duty cycle, etc.

In most application, PWM frequency is so chosen that the variation (ripple) of the motor current in a PWM period is small. In such case, the approximate formulae could be justified.
V2 = Vbattery x D ( D is the %age duty cycle)
I2 = I1 / D

Hope this could give you some help.

[mikereidis]

V2 = Vbattery x D ( D is the %age duty cycle)
I2 = I1 / D

Hope this could give you some help.

Yes, thanks much.

Does anyone know if a recently purchased ebikes/Crystalyte 72v, 20a, 4110 fets, pedal first controller can be converted to instant start ?

IE, is it just a matter of missing/changed/added components, or is it a completely different board ? (Getting tired of pedal first, but it seemed the best controller to get for my needs, other than PF.)

EDIT3: Problem is now intermittent. Ebikes Justin replied that it may be capacitor inrush current and I think he's right. This happened after I re-upgraded from 40v to 80v, so inrush current is higher. My 80v config previously had a resistor and a pre-charge switch to limit initial current, which I added after watching a 5 second light show (which welded the switch on) inside one of my 120vac 15a light switches I use for battery management. Guess I'll have to add this again, or perhaps an inductor or some other form of surge suppression.

EDIT2: My controller inexplicably started working again. Go figure. I can't imagine a wiring issue that would cause this. All wires to controller look fine.

EDIT: My 3 week old controller is now appearing dead. Last night it worked fine, and it's been flawless until now. Today, it trips my BMS, which requires 31a to trip. If I disconnect the motor, LED lights solid and BMS is fine. SOMETIMES, the LED also indicates fine with motor connected, but as soon as I go to PF, it doesn't start and BMS trips.

I've never (yet) opened or modified anything. I'm running at 40 volts or so now, so I don't think voltage was an issue. Previously I ran it at up to 83.9 volts (warranty good until 84 )at full 20 amp throttle up some 3-5 minute hills and it was fine then too,

Diode test on all 3 wires that go to motor indicates no shorts. about 0.3v or so drop (?) on eAch in one direction

Happened out of blue; no magic smoke or noise etc; hoping there is a secret hidden reset switch

Any ideas or trouble-shooting tips ?

Thanks !

[solarbbq2003]

is it the v2 controller,
you can use throttle no problemo, on the board the pedal first uses the xs pin, immediate start use the sp pin next to it,
use a 5v source pin for throttle pos/ use ov ( ground ) for negative of throttle, and output goes to sp pin.

[mikereidis]

is it the v2 controller,
you can use throttle no problemo, on the board the pedal first uses the xs pin, immediate start use the sp pin next to it,
use a 5v source pin for throttle pos/ use ov ( ground ) for negative of throttle, and output goes to sp pin.

I presume it's v2, but it doesn't look exactly like board fechter shows early in this thread. Perhaps because it's a 72v unit but only rated for 20 amps ? Seems funny to have 12 4110 fets but only 20a limit.

Here's picture with flash:

Those 3 holes on lower left look like place to attach 3 hall wires. Underneath there is 116 pin chip that I'm guessing is upc1246 commutator. I can only see "6G" or maybe "6C" ? at end of chip number. Those 3 holes: 1 goes to pins 1 and 4, 1 to 3 and 6 and other probably to 2 and 5 so it looks like commutator chip there.

So if I can figure out the right wiring for 3 hall sensors, I just add ground and some suitable voltage point, presumably another hole near these 3, or same voltage as throttle ?

Pic without flash:

bikedctrlr 004.jpg

(246.33 KiB) Downloaded 589 times

I suppose the other jack is for brake kill. I need brake switches anyway, so oh well...

Thanks !

[solarbbq2003]

its not v2 controller, v2 has white coloured board, best to put a new post on the technical thread with pic, sure someone will know where to connect throttle etc, you will be able to run normal throttle I would think

[mikereidis]

its not v2 controller, v2 has white coloured board, best to put a new post on the technical thread with pic, sure someone will know where to connect throttle etc, you will be able to run normal throttle I would think

OK, thanks. Is v2 the digital controller exclusively, or is there a list of which XLyte controllers are v1 and which are v2 ? I find the variety in boards a bit confusing, and I guess companies like ebikes may change things, like adding a CA connector etc.

[ngocthach1130]

Guys, I have the new white board V2 controller. I upgraded to irf4110 and 200v caps long ago. Recently i upped it to 100v battery source. Ran fine for a little while. The other day while up the hill, I popped a capacitor.
It was the C8 capacitor at the bottom edge of the board with the fets on the top edge. what is that capacitor and what is the value so i can replace it. Also a trace from the C12 capacitor leading to a surface mount part close to the fets is blown. It the copper trace broke but could be mended with a drop of solder. Controller still run...Weird. Should i be worry?

[solarbbq2003]

c8 100v 10uf, seems odd that one would blow,
I've had trace to c12 get very hot but only due to one of the other big caps coming undone ( my bad soldering)
might be better to make c8 larger uf, maybe also need to increase ohmns on the big resistor next to c8, which is dropping voltage ( limiting amps) to the low voltage section of board

[ngocthach1130]

Well the upgraded large capacitors at the end of the board had came loose due to everyday riding vibration. Can't seem to trace the connection of those huge capacitor and that small C8. Not sure if that is the cause. At the same time, i'm running this thing on 100V, so blown parts to be expected. Will try and search for higher value capacitor and higher rated voltage. The trace on the lead to C12 was repairable. It had just cracked and separated. Mended the crack with a drop of solder.