Shenzhen (ecrazyman) Controller Information

[Tiberius]

Hi,

Here are pics of the inside of my controller.

It should be the same as the others, apart from one mod. It is nominally 72V controller but I might want to use it at 48 or 36, so I asked Keywin to mod the low voltage cutoff for me. The blue wires hanging off are part of this.

Nick

[Tiberius]

Could you run this again at partial throttle for 60V supply because I would like to see if the phase voltage is still symmetrical like mine.
If it is still symmetrical, then the appiled phase voltage is in-phase with the BEMF of the motor

Hi The7, sorry if I haven't answered all your questions. The 8 hour time difference is going to cause a delay sometimes. But right now I am v busy getting ready for a meeting in France next week. After that I might stay on and go to the Le Mans 24 hour race. Nasty ICE's I know, but...

I haven't taken photos of partial throttle yet, but from what I remember the trapezoid shape remains the same.

Nick

[steveo]

Hi to all on the Es!

I just would like to do a quick post on this controller

I just recieved 2 controllers from knuckles this week; I have nothing but to say great things about this controller so far!!
The controller stock does run a bit warm & even after shunt has been modded... compared the my 4110 controller; but is does work GREAT with my x5304 in a 20" so far!!

-battery connections & motor phase wires to anderson powerpoles 45amp
-5 pin molex for the hall sensors
-changed the throttle connector to the same male/female 3 pin connections as a x-lite throttle;
-Placed a 35amp fuse on the red battery lead
-1 amp fuse on the orange wire ( power switch wire )
-LVC 100k adjustable timmer pot at about 55v


Also added a Modification to beef the power up!!

I added another shunt wire from a spare crystalite controller i had laying around; Max amps is now 45amps!!! The best part about this mod is the controller already has the pcb holes for the extra shunt wire

next...
- 4110 mosfet upgrade & instalation of 160v 470uf caps!!
- heat sinks to the voltage regulators


-steveo

[Knuckles]

I am so very pleased to hear this! Excellent work Steve.

btw, Keywin has another engineer friend who works for Chinese company that makes bicycles.

ARE YOU THINKING WHAT I AM THINKING!

Custom designed e bike with EVERY structual tube filled with LiFePo4 bats! 2x2 motors! disc brakes!

ha ha ... We so CRAZY!

[The7]

I just recieved 2 controllers from knuckles this week; I have nothing but to say great things about this controller so far!!
The controller stock does run a bit warm & even after shunt has been modded... compared the my 4110 controller; but is does work GREAT with my x5304 in a 20" so far!!

Frequency at hub speed of 300 rpm:
A) Gearless Hub Motors
1)Crystalyte 4000: 300 x 8 /60 = 40 Hz
2)Crystalytle 5000: 300 x 12 /60 = 60 Hz
3)GL2 : 300 x 23 /60 = 115 Hz

B) Geared Hub Motors
1) Puma : 300 x 5 x 16 / 60 = 400 Hz
2) P2 : 300 x 4 x 10 /60 = 200 Hz
3) Schwinn AL1020 : about 400 Hz

Running C5303 at 600 rpm will have an motor frequency of 120Hz
Even at 900 rpm, it is only 180 Hz which is very much lower than the critical frequency (325 Hz).
This shows that C5xxx will hardly cause any problem to the S-controller.

[Stevil_Knevil]

ARE YOU THINKING WHAT I AM THINKING!

That it might be time for a new thread

[steveo]

I just recieved 2 controllers from knuckles this week; I have nothing but to say great things about this controller so far!!
The controller stock does run a bit warm & even after shunt has been modded... compared the my 4110 controller; but is does work GREAT with my x5304 in a 20" so far!!

Frequency at hub speed of 300 rpm:
A) Gearless Hub Motors
1)Crystalyte 4000: 300 x 8 /60 = 40 Hz
2)Crystalytle 5000: 300 x 12 /60 = 60 Hz
3)GL2 : 300 x 23 /60 = 115 Hz

B) Geared Hub Motors
1) Puma : 300 x 5 x 16 / 60 = 400 Hz
2) P2 : 300 x 4 x 10 /60 = 200 Hz
3) Schwinn AL1020 : about 400 Hz

Running C5303 at 600 rpm will have an motor frequency of 120Hz
Even at 900 rpm, it is only 180 Hz which is very much lower than the critical frequency (325 Hz).
This shows that C5xxx will hardly cause any problem to the S-controller.

4110 mosfets & 160v 470uf caps to come .. stay tuned!!


p.s. .. my s-controller with 45shunt still pulling strong on stock fets @ 66v

[fechter]

I did an interesting test. The MCU is clocked by a 16mhz ceramic resonator. A PIC16F72 is rated for 20mhz. Digging around my junk pile, I ran across a 24mhz crystal, so I tried that. With the clock at 24mhz, the status LED indicator blinked noticably faster!

I hooked up my test motor and was able to run it up to 413 hz, where I ran out of voltage on my power supply. It ran fine at 413 hz. After running for about 5 minutes, the MCU was still cold to the touch. Everything ran smooth as silk with no abnormal current spikes.

In theory, the critical frequency should now be around 487hz with the clock running at 24mhz.
The crystal unit I used was a FPX24. Since it's surface mounted, I had to install it on the bottom of the board, which works fine.

24 mhz crystal mounted on bottom

24mhz crystal.jpg (69.82 KiB) Viewed 1517 times

That one is $1.91 from Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=mzRxyRlhVdtKKC3YNoGMbA%3d%3d There might be something in a 3 SIP that will fit exacly where the stock unit goes.

I dug around the junk box more and came up with a 32mhz one. I installed that, but no joy. Oscillator does not run. That does not mean the PIC can't run at 32mhz, but it won't with this particular part.

Anybody ever overclock a PIC before?

[tostino]

Would you say that this is a viable solution to the problem? or is it just some quick fix?

[The7]

I did an interesting test. The MCU is clocked by a 16mhz ceramic resonator. A PIC16F72 is rated for 20mhz. Digging around my junk pile, I ran across a 24mhz crystal, so I tried that. With the clock at 24mhz, the status LED indicator blinked noticably faster!

I hooked up my test motor and was able to run it up to 413 hz, where I ran out of voltage on my power supply. It ran fine at 413 hz. After running for about 5 minutes, the MCU was still cold to the touch. Everything ran smooth as silk with no abnormal current spikes.

This test shows that the followings are NOT necessary the cause of the critical frequency:
1) the LP filter of the Hall signal, and
2) the data representation in the MCU.

The shows that the critical frequency depends on the clock frequency.
The rate of executing the programming instructions depends on the clock frequecny??

Could you view the voltage waveform again at partial throttle to see if there are any BAD spikes?

[Tiberius]

This test shows that the followings are NOT necessary the cause of the critical frequency:
1) the LP filter of the Hall signal, and
2) the data representation in the MCU.

The shows that the critical frequency depends on the clock frequency.
The rate of executing the programming instructions depends on the clock frequecny??

Sorry, but I would disagree with point 2) there. Surely the relevant data would all be in terms of clock cycles not absolute time.
Yes, it might be working with a number representing the supply voltage, but that has been shown to be not related to the problem.

Nick

[The7]

This test shows that the followings are NOT necessary the cause of the critical frequency:
1) the LP filter of the Hall signal, and
2) the data representation in the MCU.

The shows that the critical frequency depends on the clock frequency.
The rate of executing the programming instructions depends on the clock frequecny??

Sorry, but I would disagree with point 2) there. Surely the relevant data would all be in terms of clock cycles not absolute time.
Yes, it might be working with a number representing the supply voltage, but that has been shown to be not related to the problem.

Nick

Tiberius,

Thanks for pointing out my overlook.

If the frequency is represented by the number of counts per clock period, then "the data representation in the MCU" would still possiblily be the cause.

Suppose the motor frequency is 325 Hz,
For 16MHz clock, if the no of counts for 1 clock cycle = 325 counts
Let 325 counts be the maximun counts in the counter.

Then for 24MHz clock, the no of counts for 1 clock cycle = 325 x 16/24 = 217 counts
This new clock gives a different data representation.
To reach the 325 counts, the motor frequency needs to be 487 Hz which is predicted by Fechter.

It would be great if Fechter could also try at a lower clock frequency.

[Knuckles]

Here is the original 16mhz resonator on the 72V crazy controller pcb ...

Resonator.jpg

(33.62 KiB) Downloaded 844 times

Replacement with this 20mhz resonator ...
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... me=X909-ND
... would increase the critical frequency from 325hz to 325*20/16=406hz.

ZTT-20.00MX.jpg (69.97 KiB) Viewed 1284 times

Since the MCU is rated 20mhz it is appropriate for the resonator to operate at 20mhz also.
In all likelihood, a critical frequency of 406hz should be a high enough increase in clock speed to allow the Bafang to operate smoothly up to 88V.

BTW, The Bafang PMGR operates perfectly at 88V on my old analogue Crystalyte 72V 20-amp controller.
The no-load current never exceeded 0.90 amps at full throttle at 88V test voltage.
Analogue Crystalyte controllers are, of course, discontinued (go figure).

As soon as I lace up this motor I will be road testing it at 72V (nominal) and 20 amps w/ the old x-lyte.
Pics and vids to follow.

PS ... A bit of inspiration for you overclock (PUMA) enthusiasts ... http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/presen ... king+a+PIC
(Inspiration provided by fechter of course)
I am sure Keywin would shit a pickle if someone 2X overclocked the MCU at 40mhz (use a crystal).
He just ain't that CRAZY! WTF F'n'A
USA #1
ha ha

[aaannndddyyy]

Hi all, first off Great Forum lots of info, I live in the UK (Norfolk) have been using ebikes for the past year, about 5 months ago managed too get an Ezee sprint off Ebay (36 volt NiMH) the controller has blown so I decided to buy a ecrazyman 48V 18amp controller and some extra batteries to tune the 36 volt system into 48 Volt. Actuality I have been using 43 NiMHs which gives 62 volt fully charged. I use a forum http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/ which has some pics and info on the bike http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1664-modded-sprint.html
The only colour code that worked was.
Controller Motor
Blue Yellow
Yellow Blue
Green Green
Hull wires
Black Black
Red Red
Green Green/Blue
Yellow *****
Blue Yellow
Below 7mph the motor is a little sluggish after that it’s smooth up to a NLS of 42mph.
On the road I can cruse at 26mph top speed of 30mph for around 20 miles, sometime when the throttle is opened I get what fells like a false neutral (No Power) by closing then opening the throttle again some times cures the problem, if that doesn’t work jabbing the front brake on then off again will cure it, if neither of these work the only solution is to stop the bike and roll it backward a few inches.
I decided to go for the Ecrazymans 48 volt 28amp controller to try and get this problem sorted.
Colour code worked out as,
Controller Motor
Blue Yellow
Yellow Blue
Green Green
Hull wires
Red Red
Black Black
Green Blue
Yellow Yellow
Blue Green
Runs smooth up to a NLS of 19mph then goes out of sync above that speed, after reading this tread its looks like the 325 Hz problem you’re having with the 72 volt controllers is happening with my 48 volt 28 amp controller with this Ezee motor, have just ordered a 24 Mhz 3 PIN CERAMIC RESONATOR off Ebay item no 270185419501 and will try that when it arrives.

[tostino]

Fetcher, can you tell me the frequency I will need the controller to support to be able to run my BMC (non hub) motor at 56 volts, without running into the problem?

Is it going to be at all possible with that MCU? And with going over 20mhz on it, would it be a good idea to add a heat sink?

[Knuckles]

have just ordered a 24 Mhz 3 PIN CERAMIC RESONATOR off Ebay item no 270185419501 and will try that when it arrives.

Bro you are awesome! I have been looking for these! Overclock here I come!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %26fvi%3D1

So right now people who have this controller can modify it to work at higher critical frequency!
This fixes the problem with many geared motors.

The controller currently uses a 20-mhz MCU but only a 16-mhz resonator.
The resonator controls the clock speed of the MCU (just like in a PC CPU).
When combined with the MCU program code, the 16-mhz resonator produces a controller critical frequency of 325-hz.

The 16-mhz resonator is too slow. It is the main cause of the problem (other than sloppy code).

If a new resonator is 20-mhz, (0% MCU overclock) then the new critical frequency = 325-hz*20/16 = 406-hz.
This will solve the Bafang PMGR problem at 72V nominal.

If a new resonator is 24-mhz, (20% MCU overclock) then the new critical frequency = 325-hz*24/16 = 488-hz.
This will solve the PUMA PMGR problem at 36V nominal.

If a new resonator is 44-mhz, (120% MCU overclock) then the new critical frequency = 325-hz*44/16 = 894-hz.
This will solve the PUMA PMGR problem at 72V nominal. It may also kill the MCU or not "spark it up" at all. Oh well.

Maybe Keywin would please ask his pcb vendor to make some new boards with 40-mhz MCU and 44-mhz resonator or crystal oscillator?
There should be no additional cost to make it better and the code can stay exactly the same.

If a new resonator/oscilator is 44-mhz, and a new MCU is 40-mhz (10% MCU overclock) then the new critical frequency = 325-hz*40/16 = 894-hz.
This will also solve the PUMA PMGR problem at 72V nominal but in a safe and reliable way. 10% overclock is acceptable IMO.
Many PUMA owners would be oh so happy.

Toa Chie

[The7]

The 16-mhz resonator is too slow. It is the main cause of the problem (other than sloppy code).

Maybe Keywin would please ask his pcb vendor to make some new boards with 40-mhz MCU and 44-mhz resonator or crystal oscillator?
There should be no additional cost to make it better and the code can stay exactly the same.

Well done!
Maybe this is the best workable solution if the vendor is unable to rewrite a better code/program for the MCU.

[Knuckles]

The 16-mhz resonator is too slow. It is the main cause of the problem (other than sloppy code).

Maybe Keywin would please ask his pcb vendor to make some new boards with 40-mhz MCU and 44-mhz resonator or crystal oscillator?
There should be no additional cost to make it better and the code can stay exactly the same.

Well done!
Maybe this is the best workable solution if the vendor is unable to rewrite a better code/program for the MCU.

Heck The7. You said this all along about the code. All I did was listen to you. Once fechter put a 24-mhz crystal on the pcb and overclocked the MCU we both knew you were dead on right!
The code is way too slow after all (it should be fixed - but that is a project for another day).

Toa Chie The7

USA is #1
USA is #1
USA is #1

[fechter]

I tested the overclocked controller with a Puma motor.
As predicted, the jitter starts happening right at 488hz. Exactly.

This corresponds to the full throttle speed at 44 volts.

Up until it hits the critical frequency, it runs smoothly with no nasty spikes.

So with a 24mhz clock, this would be a workable solution for system voltages up to 36v.

I don't think the stock MCU will be happy going much faster than 24mhz. With a PIC18F series processor, the same code will work, the pinout is the same, and we can clock up to possibly 44 mhz, which should work for a Puma up to 80v max (72v system).

[Knuckles]

I wish to thank fechter, The7, Tiberius and everyone else for working together to finally solve this PUMA mystery.
Like I said in my very first ES post ... "I am a ChE but I didn't know shit about ebikes until I started reading this forum."
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4109

In my ignorance I recently asked fechter ... "So I am ignorant ... is the "analogue" v "digital" thing an issue of hall signal processing to control firing of the fets?"

fechter took the time to educate me and gave me this great answer ...

QUOTE

"If you upgrade the FETs in the old analog controller it will run much cooler.

The analog controller takes the hall signals and uses analog chips to derive the commutation sequence and the PWM. There are some dedicated brushless motor control chips available today that work like this (MC33035). There is no software, everything is done with hardware, making it extremely fast. The controllers [REDACTED] was getting from the manufacturer were made like this. They had other problems apparently.

The digital controller takes the hall signals and feeds them into a microcontroller unit. The throttle, low voltage signal, current signal, everything, goes into the MCU. The MCU uses software to process all the inputs and generate an output that looks like the analog one. All the adjustments, features, and limits can be done in software.

The "advantage" to the digital controller is the MCU is very cheap and very few other components are needed to make a controller. It's also easy to change the features by changing the software. Typical R/C controllers use this approach and seem to be quite reliable. If done properly, it works well. It is the way of the future.

I think if Keywin could find a faster processor and just substitute it for the one in there, it could go much faster ... The existing processor is clocking at 16 mhz but it is rated for up to 20 mhz (or at least the official Microchip version). It might be possible to increase the clock frequency by changing the ceramic resonator (like a crystal). I'm not sure what happens if you overclock it too much. Going from 15 to 20 mhz might give you enough speed to run the Bafang at 72v.

Let me see if I can find a faster crystal. Those are cheap ... "

END QUOTE

So you can see that fechter nailed the problem thru experimentation.
He did this by verifying the code theory as originally offered by The7.

I am lucky to know such a great group of intelligent people (endless-sphere) ... from all over the planet.

toa chie
Knuckles

[tostino]

I wish to thank fechter and The7 and everyone else for finally solving this mystery.

Please let me know when you get some updated controllers . I am dieing to get this bike up and running.

[Knuckles]

No longer necessary to "bust balls". Keywin is working on implementing a new MCU for the controllers!

cheers

[computerpc101]

Anyone is nice enough to try it on 25MHZ Please, Just want to make sure that it will run 24MHZ stable with enough room.

[fechter]

I searched a large section of my junkpile and did not find anything between 24 and 32mhz. I also tested at 40mhz using an oscillator can, but processor did not spark up. No luck at 32mhz either. That would be really pushing it anyway.

It does seem rock solid at 24mhz. The processor power consumption has not changed significantly, in fact it seems to have dropped slightly. Go figure...

[Knuckles]

Anyone is nice enough to try it on 25MHZ Please, Just want to make sure that it will run 24MHZ stable with enough room.

Funny. You can only try it if you can find it and/or buy it.

Mute point anyway. Keywin is in for 110%. he is building it now. 24mhz. "no problem"

On it's way now direct from Shenzhen.

buxie

(buxie='de nada')