Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby CamLight » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:23 pm

FAS wrote:I tested the same FET that is on the attached foto.
As my video shows , I put 1.12A (from 1 li-ion cell with 3Ohm resistor) into FET and measure 3.3mV at pins close to FET body, and 4mV at end of pin (only one pin has 0.5mOm resistanse). temps around is 30°C.

I do not have another type of 4110 for tests.

Sorry, I gave up trying to interpret the test conditions in the video as soon as I realized I couldn't speak the language. :)

As liveforphysics mentioned, you need much higher current levels to calculate the on-state resistance accurately, at least 10A IMHO.
A 20A test would be nice too.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby Gordo » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:02 am

A little up date on identifying fake 4110. There are now several Chinese manufacturer's which make a 4110 with the little notches in the side and the molding mark in the center. Because I was searching for information, one of the companies selling on DHGate sent me an email offering 4110's with two pictures. The first picture was a bunch in a tube with "made in Mexico" stenciled on the tube. The second was of an individual 4110 which was slightly different than the ones in the tube. The molding mark is higher up on the FET and the notches in the side are slightly different. They do not appear to show any copper colour anywhere on them.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby methods » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:30 pm

Folks... Buy your IRFB4110's from well known American companies. You should not have to pay much more than $3 each - not worth the risk and wasted time to try and save $12 by buying them from ebay or China.

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby bobale » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:40 pm

Guys, do you think this 4110 is genuine?

ImageImage

It has copper visible on the sides of the heatsink, black moulding on the back, black notch on the front of the heatsink, and writing looks as if it's genuine.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby Gordo » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:11 pm

bobale wrote:Guys, do you think this 4110 is genuine?

ImageImage

It has copper visible on the sides of the heatsink, black moulding on the back, black notch on the front of the heatsink, and writing looks as if it's genuine.


I will go out on a limb and say no. The extra marks on the side and the molding mark being visible from the front, does not look right.
Also, look at the first post in this thread and compare.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby bobale » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:21 pm

I'm not sure do I need better glasses, but genuine 4110 in the first post looks exactly like this one I've posted. Molding mark is also visible on the genuine one, and you mean whan by extra marks on the side?
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby whatever » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:15 pm

I put the genuine and unknown pics side by side,
only difference is in the writing style and placement, I haven't seen any clones with the black moulding before, I would think maybe genuine,
genuine has 920P and unknown 029P which might be a typo? , if its a clone its a damn good one,
testing breakdown voltage or resistance would be good tests to do

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby bobale » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:36 pm

According to this

Image

920 and 029 are production year and weeks, and P is factory code, so they were made in the same factory.

Thank you for putting them side by side for me. Aside from different font, I can't see any other difference. Also, the price is almost $4 a piece, so they are not exactly cheap.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby Gordo » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:40 pm

Look at the boldness of the printing of the suspect fet? Look at the 411o not 0 in the typing. The 11's are smaller than the 4 and the "o" is a letter, not a zero. I just re-read the entire thread and IIRC the P DOES not mean where it was made?
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby bobale » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:04 am

Why then does it say (in the official package description) that the last letter is the factory code?
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby Solcar » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:14 am

whatever wrote:I put the genuine and unknown pics side by side,
only difference is in the writing style and placement, I haven't seen any clones with the black moulding before, I would think maybe genuine,
genuine has 920P and unknown 029P which might be a typo? , if its a clone its a damn good one,
testing breakdown voltage or resistance would be good tests to do

clone maybe.jpg


Observe that the legs on the genuine one are better.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby CamLight » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:18 am

whatever wrote:testing breakdown voltage or resistance would be good tests to do

I agree.
Trying to figure out whether it's genuine or not by appearance is not a good idea. It's not hard for any number of counterfeiters to get this right. The tests are simple and, IIRC, the results are pretty clear.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:36 am

It takes about a hundredth of a second to laser etch anything at all on a mosfet as it passes under the laser scribing machine on it's little conveyor belt leaving the tinning bath.

I would not use appearance of what is printed to be any evidence of a positive genuine FET. If the writing is badly screwed up, you could use it as evidence of a fake, but just because it's right does NOT make it evidence of a genuine part. If you can make a transistor and own a laser scribe, you can sure as hell get what is printed on the face to be a dead-nuts copy with 5 minutes of effort.


I have an excellent test rig at the moment to do some voltage vs leakage current tests, a 6.5digit precision nano-amp meter, power supplies, and 6.5digit DMM's, and precision shunts and precision current supplies.

I will try to get some numbers up for genuine IR 4110 parts sometime this week. I do not have any fakes to test, so somebody else will have to take that on.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby CamLight » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:35 am

liveforphysics wrote:I will try to get some numbers up for genuine IR 4110 parts sometime this week. I do not have any fakes to test, so somebody else will have to take that on.

I did a bunch of tests with all those FETs that were sent to me, should still be up here somewhere.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby whatever » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:41 am

another test is a destructive test, I did break open some fake and genuine 4110's a long time back, there were some differences internally,
but its a bit difficult to open them up and see the internal layers/wires, but it is another option.
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby The Mighty Volt » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:09 am

On the left is a known genuine 4110 Mosfet as supplied by Methods. On the right is the first Mosfet in a controller. It purports to be a 4110. How does it look to you guys

Image


On the top of the photo is a series of known 4110 Mosfets, again supplied by Methods, in a plastic strip container. On the bottom, are visible are other Mosfets, purporting to be 4110 Mosfets, as arranged in a controller. One thing which caught my attention was that Methods mosfets have a distinctive copper hue. The ones in the controller do too, but it is just not as uniformly distinctive.

Now, that could be the aluminium heat-sink, or the yellow plastic tape, interfering. I don't know. I don't even know if it is that important.

Image

The best shot I could get of two Mosfets beside each other in the controller. Note the grubby nature of the prints on the Mosfets- but again that's not conclusive, because I took a known 4110 and rubbed it back between by thumb and index finger and it resulted in a faded, grubby appearance of the lettering. So who knows.

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby The Mighty Volt » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:13 am

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby The Mighty Volt » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:31 am

The two mosfets in this photo were fitted to an old controller by ES member "Monster".

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby whatever » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:14 am

look genuine to me
a- moulded centre part ( not present in some fakes)
b- rounded edges ( some fakes have very square edges, noticeably different)
printing looks genuine
I'd guess genuine, you can destructively check them also they have tiny tiny high amp wires inside, genuine have three tiny wires for the high current from memory
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby Dave-s » Thu May 10, 2012 3:41 am

Hi,
Where can I purchase original 4110's?
Are all the ones sold on eBay from China fake?
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby amberwolf » Fri May 11, 2012 4:08 am

No way to know until you get some and characterize them. ;)
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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby methods » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:25 am

Did we get anywhere with this?

When I first saw those fets (in another thread) they instantly looked fake to me. Printing is at an angle.... I have probably looked at 10,000 4110 fets. I can't quite put my finger on it but those don't look genuine to me.

There have been some very good fakes on the market for some time now. Not sure if the old methods we used to compare them are still valid. Need to test.

4110's are a lot more affordable now then they used to be tho - so chances are higher that a Chinese supplier is actually bringing them in from a good source.

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby methods » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:32 am

Since I am here... time to share a little something with you guys.

First off - here is how you search for cheap parts. http://octopart.com/

Enter IRFB4110

You get this busy ass page: http://octopart.com/irfb4110pbf-international+rectifier-36192
Note that all of the major manufacturers are listed and all of the pricing is right there - across quantities.

Right away you can find Arrow carrying IRFB4110 fets for $1.53 each - even in quantities of 1 !!!
http://www.arrownac.com/parts/detail/42590206S7624301N3340

Dude... do you realize how awesome of a price that is guys?
Back when I was selling IRFB4110 fets here I had to commit to buying 12,000pcs to get similar prices.

So there you go. Discussion over... get um while they are hot. That is dirt f'ing cheap.

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby John in CR » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:32 am

Hey Methods,

You mentioned testing them. Is there something those of us with little in the way of tools more than a multimeter and even less know-how can do to test them other than using the controller and see how far it can be pushed?

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Re: Detecting counterfeit 4110 mosfets

Postby methods » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:46 am

I dont have any direct experience here - so I am totally shooting at the hip.
If I was a regular guy with nothing but an iCharger I would do it like this:

1) Hook up a 12V source between the gate and the source to turn it on.
2) Set the icharger up for foam cut and turn the current up as far as it will go - say 20A
3) Hook the iCharger up across the mosfet - should work the same in either direction but try both.
4) Hook a good dmm as close to the legs of the fet as you can - set it to DC mV

V = I * R

We are looking for about 3 or 4 mohms right?
I figure a fake might be 10mohms?

20A * 4mohms = 80mV
20A * 10mohms = 200mV

So as a totally gross test I propose that we could drive a constant current through the fet while it is biased completely on. We then look at the voltage that develops across the part to back calculate its rdson

Again - I am a mosfet retard so I am sure there are a ton of guys on here who know a lot more about it than me. I am a hack and that is how I would do it with the tools most guys have on hand. I have never gotten into the whole mosfet matching thing... I dont have the patience for that shit.

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