Aluminium E-Bike MTB frame production

Hi all. As the title suggests I am looking into producing Aluminium E Bike mountain bike frames. For the time being, I am looking at the idea of converting a standard production frame as I have just done for myself with the 2009 Norco Empire 5 slopestyle bike below \|/






Gussets still need to be added to this frame yet, just before it goes in for powdercoating. The RH drivetrain cover needs to be finished also.
It is up and running with a build thread in the Non Hub Motor section - Norco Empire 8150 Build + 1st Video.

These are my aims:

Produce both a hardtail and full suspension versions.

Versatility - one frame can be used for hub-motor, Cyclone and hopefully Recumpence's RC Reduction unit with rear plates to suit each application sold individually.

- frames to be modular up front to allow users to add extra frame width should they wish to add more battery capacity later on.


The hardtail below is a Brand X Dirt Jumper III which i am keen to use. I own one (pictured) and think it'd make a great hardtail choice - light, strong, disc/v brake bosses, 1-1/8 headtube 120mm long, gussets and approx 68 deg head angle with a 120mm fork to suit our higher than pedaling only average speeds. Why a jump bike? Strong dropouts and built to take a pounding and come out smiling. The largest they make are 15" but with a 550mm c-c top tube length, are bigger than the number suggests plus i can extend the top tube length further if needed. Frames will only be one size to keep it simple, probably medium.
I am about 5"9 and comfortable with a 50mm DH stem.




I will post up a sketch later of the design i have in mind but am also looking for suggestions from you guys for other ideas you've got and suggestions for reasonably priced full suspension frames to be used as well. Frames must be either 6061 or 7000 series alloy and of a design that the rear suspension will clear the insert like the Norco above. Also would ya's want a DH based frame or more XC orientated to use shorter forks/better pedaling. This is your opportunity for input so have your say!


View attachment 1
These would would be great but have no v-brake bosses...

Cheers!

Paul

Best of luck with the endeavour mate, if your own ride is anything to go by you will be inundated with
requests



That is just SOOOO much nicer than the only other downhill ebike
built for serious off road



I know what i would prefer, its really no competiton IMHO...the Norco
is leaps and bounds ahead of the Stealth in every way..

KiM

I say if you are going to do it, just go all the way. Why spend $500 or more on a frame you will modify when you could just start from scratch and come in much cheaper and have a better product to boot?

I would suggest a steel frame for longevity and production reasons, but that's not my call mate 8)

I am definitively interested in geting one, if the battery compartment could be just a bit larger :wink: ..

But not for 2.3kWh this time... let say just 1kWh of Lipo
I am still searching for a frame similar to the Stealthbomber, but with normal pedal.. I still preffer the true power and silence of an X5!

Doc

Paul

If you need any CAD or FEA help let me know (but I'm not modelling a whole bike frame!).


And no, I'm not after a free one, I have my modded DH Team


You don't need v-brake bosses, even road bikes have disc brakes these days, and most motors will fit a disc.

Thankyou for the kind words AJ
There are some awsome ideas in the Stealth Bombers and they are a top class dirt-ready E-Bike, but they lose out on power to weight:

Bomber: 3kw / 57kg

E Norco: 4 - 5kw / 24kg

Having said that they have a much longer range than mine but still thats more than twice the weight and less power... :wink:

johnrobholmes said:

I say if you are going to do it, just go all the way. Why spend $500 or more on a frame you will modify when you could just start from scratch and come in much cheaper and have a better product to boot?

Click to expand...

Good point, I have actually started on a 100% original frame design but it will be well over 6 months away from the 1st protype being ready for testing. Before that i need to organise jigging, finalise the design and more importantly, find bicycle specific parts (cable hangers, proper I.D. seat tubing, threaded bottom brackets, v brake bosses etc).

The donar/insert frames - especially the hardtail, i'm hoping to be like a budget / entry level version. The hardtail frame i'm looking at using retails for $120AUD and could be had for maybe $50 - $80AUD by going direct to the manufacturer if they will sell to me. That is a cheap rear half of a frame to insert into :wink:

johnrobholmes said:

I would suggest a steel frame for longevity and production reasons, but that's not my call mate

Click to expand...

With material i am biased towards aluminium - its easy to work with, clean and light. Plus it can still be built strong in the right areas to retain strength.

Doctorbass said:

I am definitively interested in geting one, if the battery compartment could be just a bit larger ..

Click to expand...

Hey Doc! I will hopefully be posting a drawing of my modular battery section of the frame later tonight (5pm here) to show how by adding extra plates to each side of the frame, battery storage size can be increased or decreased depending on your requirements. What battery dimensions are you talking?!!!

Doctorbass said:

I am still searching for a frame similar to the Stealthbomber, but with normal pedal.. I still preffer the true power and silence of an X5!

Click to expand...

I won't do full triangle storage frames like the Stealths - they look too motorbike and not bicycle enough - personal preference. Plus with talk of Australian Police carrying around "E - Bike Dyno's" soon, anyone riding anything like a Bomber in public will standout like a sore thumb! Keep it looking semi - bicycle atleast i reckon lol :lol:

These frames will be hub - motor friendly too! Any suggestions for rear torque arm mounts on the frame Doc? What would enable easy torque arm mounting (i'm not into hub motors but i see alot of spanners and hose clamps being used for this purpose lol). Would say a M6 threaded mount on the left side chain stay do the trick? Then people just drill a hole in the end of their torque arm and bolt on? Do torque arms vary in design according to the hub design/shaft flats?

Mark_A_W said:

If you need any CAD or FEA help let me know (but I'm not modelling a whole bike frame!).

Click to expand...

Thankyou for the offer Mark, i may take you up on that at some stage - i've got an engineer friend who will help with the CAD side of things but its nice to know theres backup just incase!

Mark_A_W said:

And no, I'm not after a free one, I have my modded DH Team

Click to expand...

:lol: :lol:



Paul

Timma2500 said:

Bomber: 3kw / 57kg

E Norco: 4 - 5kw / 24kg

Click to expand...

HAHA yes i couldnt believe the weight of them when i found out, my cruiser is lighter bwahaha

Timma2500 said:

These frames will be hub - motor friendly too!

Click to expand...

...must be the Queenslander coming out in you.. :: slap :: snap out of it man

KiM

Timma2500 said:

and more importantly, find bicycle specific parts (cable hangers, proper I.D. seat tubing, threaded bottom brackets, v brake bosses etc).

Click to expand...

If you can't find anything locally, I've found this company reliable. They may also have the tube you want. http://www.ceeway.com/Aluminum%20Aluminium%20Alloy%20Titanium.htm

Cheers Malcom, they should come in handy. Found another mob with disk brake dropouts too.

AussieJester said:

my cruiser is lighter bwahaha

Click to expand...

and alot more stylish too

This has taken ages to type one handed, can't stop slappin myself with my other hand for some reason....

Paul

There is a great need for this Tim, even if you made custom inserts that people could fill with batteries etc... Bit then again you might have the duct tape producers after you. :lol:

If you take it one step further and design something like a modular frame that could be switched back to a decent pedal only frame in less than half hour, I can see a market for this too. You can use this coupler:

http://www.sandsmachine.com/

I also found this website to have a lot of good aluminum tubing for frmebuilders:

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/home.php

I think if you are to make a go of it, a custom frame made from scratch might be much easier and cheaper than rigging up one already made. I also think steel is not to be overlooked. Yeah, it might add say 3 kilos, but it is much more forgiving and doesn't need heat treating. If you made a steel frame with those couplers you could still make your ebike insert out of aluminum if you like.

Let's focus on getting a decent video of your current build first! :wink: :lol:

It's kinda hard convincing the girlfriend that this is the future when all you see is some Aussie going in circles around a backyard in flip flops. :lol:

Dude... That thing is awesome.
So how long is the waiting list for one, and how much are they going to run?

Hi Paul,

Timma2500 said:

Versatility - one frame can be used for hub-motor, Cyclone and hopefully Recumpence's RC Reduction unit with rear plates to suit each application sold individually.

Click to expand...

johnrobholmes said:

I say if you are going to do it, just go all the way. Why spend $500 or more on a frame you will modify when you could just start from scratch and come in much cheaper and have a better product to boot?

Click to expand...

Timma2500 said:

Good point, I have actually started on a 100% original frame design but it will be well over 6 months away from the 1st protype being ready for testing. Before that i need to organise jigging, finalise the design and more importantly, find bicycle specific parts (cable hangers, proper I.D. seat tubing, threaded bottom brackets, v brake bosses etc).

Click to expand...

I'd like a FS Frame that will work with an RC Motor/reduction unit that would work well without driving through the crank (avoid reducing down to crank RPM).

One way would be a location for mounting the motor/reduction unit on the swingarm.

A better way (IMO) would be the ability to connect to an intermediate shaft on a frame like the Brooklyn Machine Works racelink (http://www.brooklynmachineworks.com/):

Paul, Generally all the hub motor have an axel with M14 tread and two flatened opposite face on it that make it having 10mm between both flat side. The 10mm is generallt the common Axel diameter.

Best for a strong torque arm is that this part require to be in STEEL and having at least 1/4" thick on each torque arm.

so the deep o fthe axel room in the drop out must have 14mm at least.

To give you an idea, each edge of each flat side on the hub motor axel support more than 2 tons when using 4 or 5kW on these X5 motor.

Doc

Timma2500 said:

johnrobholmes said:

I say if you are going to do it, just go all the way. Why spend $500 or more on a frame you will modify when you could just start from scratch and come in much cheaper and have a better product to boot?

Click to expand...

Good point, I have actually started on a 100% original frame design but it will be well over 6 months away from the 1st protype being ready for testing. Before that i need to organise jigging, finalise the design and more importantly, find bicycle specific parts (cable hangers, proper I.D. seat tubing, threaded bottom brackets, v brake bosses etc).

Click to expand...

i'm making similar decisions on whether to go a) "conversion" or b) "full frame design". in the end i decided to go directly to b) because with a) you reach a point where:

1. there's not much left of the original bike and it just becomes cheaper and less work to build from scratch
2. you're far enough up on the learning curve to tackle a full frame design
3. you've accumulated enough tools and machines from your past conversions
4. you're not too hard up for money

a) can be a profitable hobby, b) can be a marketable business

but the most important thing--enjoy what you do and take pride in your work

What is your intended customer base? A couple of years ago I bought a new MTB because it was the easiest way to get fat tires, full suspension, and a front disc brake. It met my needs, but I found that using it as a street commuter, I would've liked a longer frame and slightly more rake in the forks. Much like the difference between a sport motorcycle and a cruiser.

If I had to buy an existing frame and price was no object, the Rans Citi and Izip Express are close to what I'd want (both very expensive!). But as a builder, you can't design a frame style to satisfy one customer (me) and nobody else buys one.

AussieJester said:

Timma2500 said:

Bomber: 3kw / 57kg

E Norco: 4 - 5kw / 24kg

Click to expand...

HAHA yes i couldnt believe the weight of them when i found out, my cruiser is lighter bwahaha

Timma2500 said:

These frames will be hub - motor friendly too!

Click to expand...

...must be the Queenslander coming out in you.. :: slap :: snap out of it man

KiM

Click to expand...

What you guys are missing is torque versus weight, and robustness versus weight.


The stealth bomber has HEAPS of torque. From the video of your Norco, unless you were being gentle for testing, the Stealth Bomber has you hands down (I've ridden various stealth bikes, in fact I was at the factory yesterday, but didn't ride one). It's scary

It has lots of range, and is rugged and dependable. Day in, day out, rain, mud whatever. If the electrics break, you pedal home. If the chain/crank breaks you motor home (done both on my bikes).

The beauty of driving through the pedals is gears. The problem with driving through the pedal is gears. They are a double edged sword, particularly with a derailleur. I have enough trouble keeping a legs only derailleur setup running well. The thought of putting 3kw+ through it scares me silly. A rohloff hub or a parallel single speed chain/belt would go a long way to assuage those fears.


So I would not discount mounting a hub motor. A geared BMC motor does not weigh much.


The best frame I have seen for an ebike setup is a single speed dually style frame with removable dropouts like a Kona Bass. That way you can make dedicated hub dropouts. It also has large main pivots coincident with the BB.

Mark_A_W said:

What you guys are missing is torque versus weight, and robustness versus weight.

Click to expand...

LoL...no not missing anything Mark... No brainier mate, 27kilo bike with 5-6kw v's 57kilo bike with what 6-7kw?
Heck...I would put money on my cruiser beating the Stealth off the line, you wouldnt be able to put the power
to the ground my cruiser can without flipping the rider on their ass

Mark_A_W said:

The stealth bomber has HEAPS of torque. From the video of your Norco, unless you were being gentle for testing, the Stealth Bomber has you hands down (I've ridden various stealth bikes, in fact I was at the factory yesterday, but didn't ride one). It's scary

Click to expand...

..Paul doing laps around his backyard to show the bike is now running is hardly an indication of the torque, maybe check some of recumpence videos if you want to see what the rc motors are capable of ...

Mark_A_W said:

The beauty of driving through the pedals is gears. The problem with driving through the pedal is gears. They are a double edged sword, particularly with a derailleur. I have enough trouble keeping a legs only derailleur setup running well. The thought of putting 3kw+

Click to expand...

..line the chains up correctly they are trouble free, same as they are trouble free on a motorcyle ..i have never had issues once they are set right...& 3kw pfft try 5kw plus with RC setups ..on 44v can't do that with a frock motor Mark!

Mark_A_W said:

So I would not discount mounting a hub motor. A geared BMC motor does not weigh much.

Click to expand...

Might want to have a word with Deecano on that Mark, thats the exact motor he made marbles of the gears trying to use it offroad
and the reason he is now using rc setups.

I would encourage Paul to keep pushing the envelope like Recumpence does, each build an improvement from the last. Bolting frock motors on lightweight frames is defeating the purpose IMO, big heavy unsprung weight on the ass end frame piled with 15 kilo of batteries to get the motors to perform and range.. bah.. does nothing for performance, Lightweight high powered well balanced rc builds is where its at for high performance builds.... Each to their own though i mean no disrespect to those frock motor users (cept Hyena..you big blouse ) Frock motors are great for daily commuters with minimal hills for those with little skill/tools
to modify/fit/adjust rc setups to make them reliable. /my 2 cents


KiM

Matt does direct drive to his back wheel.

So do motorcycles.

The derailleur is the issue, not chain or belt drive.



Again, Power or Torque? There is a difference you know.


Deecanio had plastic gears. And last time I checked his bike wasn't working right with the complex RC drive.

Look, I'm not saying pick one way or another, but if you were to make a custom frame, if you want to sell some, you'll HAVE to allow for hub motors. They outnumber chain drive systems by at least 10 to 1.

And silence is golden, for a bike to sneak past on the road, it has to be silent. There are some awesome RC builds, but none so far are silent.

Mark_A_W said:

Look, I'm not saying pick one way or another, but if you were to make a custom frame, if you want to sell some, you'll HAVE to allow for hub motors. They outnumber chain drive systems by at least 10 to 1.

.

Click to expand...

I realise that and i wouldn't and don't expect people too, the hub setups are great for daily commuters
rail hail or shine, they are easy to setup and yes if your anal about noise they are silent...Me and others prefer the sound
of a screaming RC motors, myself, no chain noise either i run belts so its very quiet Mark and the screaming
of the outrunner is addictive i think

I think alos Mark You know very well the reason we see more hub setups is because of the ease of setup,
not everyone has the time and skills or money for that matter to setup a rc build...As for Deecanos not working
thats not true at all, motor gear side works fine... just not for him ...he wants to pedal when hes doing 30mph for some
silly reason..it's Deec we don't qwuetion why just try to helpz get what he wants, think all the bouncing
of the soccer ball off his noggin has affected him somewhat j/k Deec

I guess at the end of the day i want too see RC setups progress, as Paul has shown with this Norco build, they can
be made to be very stealth and to the gear heads its just pure pr0n ... Its not easy to setup a bike with rc opposed to
the hub setups, you can get a wallmart bike and a roll of duct tape purchase a hub motor and be up and running in an hour
or two, even Recumpence couldnt do that with a rc build... If we can get a handful of dedicated frame builders/modders to
get into the rc stuff it will make it easier for those with less skill/tools to get a bike more suited to off road riding than
hub motored bike...IMO... Honestly I have nothing against the hub motor i do like teasing some of their users though right Hyena

KiM

I think we will see some near silent chain drive solutions in the next year or two. First thing is to get the motor spinning slower, AKA larger in diameter so we can have just one stage of reduction if wanted. The next part is to use an inrunner, axial flux, or an outrunner with none of the typical venting so the air noise is reduced. Combine that with a switching frequency in the inaudible range and we could have some very stealth systems. Add on a motor or drive shroud and it would get even better.


I just started bending some tubes tonight, so maybe I will join you in building some frames

johnrobholmes said:

I think we will see some near silent chain drive solutions in the next year or two.

Click to expand...

Have it now...belt drives

johnrobholmes said:

or an outrunner with none of the typical venting so the air noise is reduced.

Click to expand...

Thinking of puting a small fan on mine, not for cooling doesnt get too hot to hold your hand on it but so it makes MORE
NOISE..maybe some 'additional' lightening holes will help increase the outrunner SCReeeeAm
i f*cking love the sound of these things at full noise John...And at half/3/4 throttle they are very quiet i can't undertsand
the fuss over the noise TBH...but im from ol school 2 stroke motor-x bikes and they aren't loud enough either IMO haha

johnrobholmes said:

I just started bending some tubes tonight, so maybe I will join you in building some frames

Click to expand...

Made a frame jig yet? will be a must to get the thing straight mate...theres a nice sticky on FreakBikeNation detailing frame jigs if you
needs some ideas anywayz John...best of luck with it, when done and you take your first ride you will have a feeling of satisfaction
that you have NEVER gotten guarantee you that, huge satisfaction when you build your own frame from scratch and take that first ride.

KiM

etard said:

Bit then again you might have the duct tape producers after you.

Click to expand...

Ah crap i'll start running now! :wink:

etard said:

If you take it one step further and design something like a modular frame that could be switched back to a decent pedal only frame in less than half hour, I can see a market for this too. You can use this coupler:

Click to expand...

Good find Etard! Yes i think there is a calling for frames that can be reverted back to normal too, i would've liked that ability on the Norco... That coupler is awsome but unfortunately very pricey at $300 - $500US... I can't justify that sort of price addition to a frame but the idea itself has very good merit. I'm sure we could come up with a simpler/cheaper way of doing it ourselves...

etard said:

I also found this website to have a lot of good aluminum tubing for frmebuilders:

Click to expand...

Saved to Favourites - Cheers mate!
I found another site with disk brake dropouts but have decided to make my own, that we they can be over-built to suit the hub-motor boys needs better. I would just use a commercially available replacable derailleur hanger to go with it.

etard said:

I also think steel is not to be overlooked

Click to expand...

Sorry guys you won't be seeing steel frames coming out of my workshop, i know a few of you would prefer it but there a few reasons behind it. Hal9000v2.0 is already doing steel (chromoly?) frames and it sounds like JohnRobHolmes might also be joining Hal in doing steel / cromoly frames so I'm sure they can handle that side of things. Aluminium frames are used on 99% of DH bikes used at World Cup level. As cool as the likes of Brooklyn Bikes are, they don't win top level DH races... Used extensively in Moto x and Enduro frames and swingarms, automotive suspension arms and parts etc...
Aluminium is clean, easy to work with and can be built strong to last.

Mark_A_W said:

What you guys are missing is torque versus weight, and robustness versus weight

Click to expand...

My total reduction from motor to back wheel in 1st gear is 47.42:1. If someone can work out the max torque for an Astro 8150 on 12s at 100amps in Newton Metres, multiply that by 47.42 and you have my max torque figure. I was hoping it'd have say around 2 - 2.5NM which would be 95 - 118NM at the back wheel in 1st gear :wink:
Robustness - refer to above paragraph.

Mark_A_W said:

From the video of your Norco, unless you were being gentle for testing, the Stealth Bomber has you hands down

Click to expand...

I bought my battey 7 months ago and can't charge it due to them sending me out a dud charger. That video is of the bike riding around on whatever charge the manufacturer sent the battery to me with 7 months ago... I'm happy to drag race any standard production Stealth Bomber when ive got a charged battery - less than half the weight, more KW and maybe more torque (Stealth don't publish their torque figures on their website). Oh and i'm geared for 80 - 90kph on 12s too :wink:

I didn't mean any offence to Stealth and i'm sure AJ didn't either with our previous comments, they are a great unit and I'm proud to say they are an Aussie company who are producing arguably the best production Dirt E-Bike on the planet at this time. But they aint perfect -
Bomber - a 10kg hub motor (clyte 5xxx) will never be benificial for handling or front to rear weight balance, 57kg is alot of weight to throw around on a bicycle dirt single track, 9sp gearbox will be very expensive to fix if anything goes wrong then finding someone to fix it. I can get a cassette and derailleur in any town, cheap if need be and carry a small chain breaker and spare chain pin incase the chain breaks.
Fighter - hub motor reasons as above, only 2kw / 35kg with similar range to what mine should get, only 2 speeds to pedal or get a derailleur for 16spds...

As i said, not meaning to offend, just pointing out the facts

Mark_A_W said:

And silence is golden, for a bike to sneak past on the road, it has to be silent

Click to expand...

To me the sound is also a safety device as well - no-one will be stepping out in front of me cos they didn't hear me coming... and i can shut off the throttle and pedal with my 9spds in silence past the rozzers if need be :wink: In the Bush where i ride, kangaroos will hear me coming and clear out before i reach them (i almost hit one a few weeks ago on my EPX 'cos it didn't hear me coming....

Doctorbass said:

so the deep o fthe axel room in the drop out must have 14mm at least.

Click to expand...

So dropouts for the hub-motor boys should have a 14mm hole? So Doc, you think i should make torque arms or let the customers provide their own?

MitchJi said:

A better way (IMO) would be the ability to connect to an intermediate shaft on a frame like the Brooklyn Machine Works racelink (http://www.brooklynmachineworks.com/):

Click to expand...

Yep and D sounds like he's chasing something similar. If you are in no immediate rush, leave it with me. If i can incorparate this into my 100% design, even as another version, i will do so

Drunkskunk said:

So how long is the waiting list for one, and how much are they going to run?

Click to expand...

Haha no pre orders taken so no waiting list as such! But the 100% custom full suspension frame will be 6 months away yet before testing begins.
The donar frame hardtail version will be the budget model and ready sooner but can't give a definate price yet - I'm hoping under $450AUD.
The hardtail and 100% custom frame's front end will be different to my Norco - the insert will go all the way to the headtube which will be new not reused off the original donar frame. The custom frame could end up using Easton tubing yet too. For those that don't know, Easton produce some of the best quality aluminium bicycle tubing available


Paul

johnrobholmes said:

I think we will see some near silent chain drive solutions in the next year or two. First thing is to get the motor spinning slower, AKA larger in diameter so we can have just one stage of reduction if wanted. The next part is to use an inrunner, axial flux, or an outrunner with none of the typical venting so the air noise is reduced. Combine that with a switching frequency in the inaudible range and we could have some very stealth systems. Add on a motor or drive shroud and it would get even better.

Click to expand...

Also, sine controllers would cut the noise level, appreciably. We definitely need motors dedicated to our needs.......

Mark_A_W said:

Look, I'm not saying pick one way or another, but if you were to make a custom frame, if you want to sell some, you'll HAVE to allow for hub motors. They outnumber chain drive systems by at least 10 to 1.

Click to expand...

not to knock hub motors, they have their place, but there is not as much value you can add to a frame designated for hub-motor (ergo lower price bracket). i think paul is after the high-end early adopter (i would be). integrated gearbox, motor, battery compartment, controller/electricals, tidy wiring and connectors in a slick package is an engineering challenge.

Timma2500 said:

I won't do full triangle storage frames like the Stealths - they look too motorbike and not bicycle enough - personal preference. Plus with talk of Australian Police carrying around "E - Bike Dyno's" soon, anyone riding anything like a Bomber in public will standout like a sore thumb! Keep it looking semi - bicycle atleast i reckon lol :lol:

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. Having motorbike performance when no one is looking is one thing, but try coasting down a footpath with the engine off on a dirt bike and see if it doesn't get the cops attention.

Check out my Norco build threadfor what sort of beefing up you need to do to run a 5kw hub motor on an Al frame. I found the deraileur hanger was the weak point, and because it forms part of the drop out the axle is putting torque against it and being soft it'll break first.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/5600/dropout1.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4319/torqueplatestestfit.jpg

I think on a custom frame 'torque plates' rather than arms are the way to go. If you could make an oversized flat Al drop out area with a deep slot you could then easily bolt a steel plate to it. It wouldn't even have to be a 14x10mm axle hole - just a 10mm slot in the steel plate that bolts up the opposite way to the drop out would do. (something like these that I made but up the other way)

I agree your integrated RC drive is very cool and stealth but unless you're planning to offer them practically 'turn key' I think alot of people with lesser skills will have trouble getting it all up and running. If you're going to buy the frames in bulk you definitely want to cater to the hub motor or 'I want a frame with integrated battery space' crowd. As far as building frames from scratch goes, it'd pretty much be worth your while to buy those little dirt jumper frames for <$100 to cut up for all the relevant parts wouldn't it ? (heat tube, bottom bracket etc )

AussieJester said:

i mean no disrespect to those frock motor users (cept Hyena..you big blouse )

Click to expand...

Die in a fire :lol: