Hill climbing endurance?

Geebee

1 kW
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
471
Location
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
I have a ride that I like to do but my doc. has currently veto'd it. It involves a 20 km (12.4 mile) route up a 3000m (10,000') climb that is basicly continuous climbing followed by 20 km downhill and a similar steepness 5 km (3 mile) climb to home.
Does anyone run a system that would allow this on a regular basis, preferably not costing a couple of million dollars:).
 
Let's see... a 15% climb (3km/20km) for 15.4mi total uphill distance with coasting in between...yep...my system *should* be able to complete that (with or without pedaling) in something over an hour of climbing plus however long the downhill portion takes.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=147

Pulling 30-35 amps all the way (in order to go 15-20mph up the hill) would just deplete the 33ah's of batteries completely...so I'd have to take it somewhat slower.

*All this assumes I hadn't damaged some of my batteries by overdischarging once before. In reality, because of that damage, I keep continuous amps below 20, using bursts to 35 for a few minutes at a time. So I don't know now and wouldn't want to kill the damaged cells trying.
 
You forgot the 5km to get home at the end.
During the climb there is maybe 200m that is not climbing during that 20km so until the top basically no coasting.
Oh and to keep things interesting the last 4km are steeper than the rest :) just when you or your batteries are getting knackered.
Some of the local roadies use it as a training run but they nearly all bail at aroung the 16km mark because of the increasing steepness.
In case you hadn't guessed its up the side of a mountain. :)

Thats pretty impressive performance Xyster but how much for the battery pack and charger?
 
You forgot the 5km to get home at the end.

Don't think so. 5k is 3.1 miles as I recall from my running days:"for 15.4mi total uphill distance with coasting in between

Have you ridden up this monstrous hill before?

From our indispensable friend, the bicycle speed and power calculator, I see that on road racing bikes these athletes can make it up the 15 miles in about three hours by maintaining 300 watts, or ~6 hours by maintaining 150 watts.
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
That's more than a marathon of human energy. Very impressive. Doc might be doing you a favor! This is in Tasman(ia)?

just when you or your batteries are getting knackered.

I read in rcgroups.com that lithium-cobalt overdischarging incidents like I experienced often cause loss of the cell's ability to maintain high power output, while capacity remains relatively unaffected. This general observation fits with my experience. Another member here, Patrick M, uses the same cells I do and reports 1.8C continuous output whereas I'm getting 1C output max, and even that seems to get certain cells (the damaged ones) hot if held too long. If you're interested in constructing your own pack like I did, these are the batteries I used, and the chargers:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1643

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1231

Using coupons and their older, lower prices, I bought these cells for $3/per, and 21 1-cell chargers for $9 each.

If soldering 300 batteries isn't your cup of tea, and you really want to have a shot at success, I'd recommend either four to six of the $749 USD EV Tech lipoly packs others here, like Knoxie, are using:

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/lithium-polymer-battery-volt15-hour-p-165.html

arranged in a 2s2 or 3p configuration for 30 or 45 AH at 74 volts.

OR

use the cells I wanted to, but couldn't afforded, the emoli's used in Milwaukee powertools. The owner of bigerc would probably build you a custom pack to spec:
http://bigerc.com/index.php?cPath=21_26
If I remember correctly, the owner's name is Michael Charles and he seems legit and very helpful (we've communicated by email, but I've not bought from him). Or you could buy the individual cells, or take apart Milwuakee V28 batteries:
http://tinyurl.com/373p73
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443

The emoli pack would be about 1/3rd heavier than a similar lithium cobalt/lipoly pack but should last upwards of ten years or about 3 times as long as lithium cobalt/lipoly.

OR

Bolting together 30+ AHs of a123's is another DIY possibility:
http://a123racing.com/html/rcdevkits.html
but will also require either their chargers, or 7 regular lithium chargers for every 8s of cells, which would preclude proper balancing without a custom BMS. In order to balance, emoli's can be charged with single cell chargers, one per parallal subpack, like I do my lithium cobalt pack.

However you cut it, you'll need either lithium on the bike, or a strong bicycle trailer with a very strong hitch system to carry enough nickel or lead.

As far as the motor goes, if it's a hubmotor, probably the only reasonable choice due to heat build-up is the crystalyte 5305. A motor running through the gears and chains may be the better option from an efficiency standpoint. Of course motor choice will affect battery specs (wouldn't run 72V through a 36 volt cyclone motor for instance), so choose the motor first.

In case you hadn't guessed its up the side of a mountain.

Figured it wasn't a staircase.... :)

An early configuration of my pack charging (I've since increased battery count to 300 (20s15p) and spaced them over my bike for better weight balance):
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1859.JPG
    IMG_1859.JPG
    71.2 KB · Views: 2,912
Egad, I thought I had done some lash up charging before. :shock:
Yeah, I have ridden up it a bit, often turning around at the 16 km point but occasionally to the summit and sometimes at about 10 km if I am pushed for time, it's a really senic ride I have done it on my MTB and in my velomobile, they take about the same amount of time going up and the velo is a HELL of a lot faster coming down, to the point I have to pull over and let the brakes cool down (the first time I came very close to complete brake loss due to heat) occasionally.
Last time I tested I could hold 300 watt continuosly and that was 2 years ago and I am a lot fitter and stronger now (or was) :roll:, I was riding 1~1 1/2 hours every night and 2~3+ hours each day on weekends, always in hillly terrain and at maximum effort. Currently reduced to 6 nights a week for 40 minutes, the only good side is that I am allowed to sprint as hard as I wish.
Yeah, battery wise I was scared it would be that dear.
Cheers.
ps. Mt. Wellington, Hobart, Tasmania
 
Xyster, Thanks for your last reply, with my riding I had not allowed for the increased energy consumption caused by the terrain.
Putting it in wattage terms compared to human output capacity made me sit back and look at some of the riding I have done (including doing the mountain ride on consecutive weekends along with my normal riding schedule), and my current health issues may well be due to pulling to many amps, to often out of my organic battery pack. A bit like your abused lipo's :)
Notice the attempt to keep this on topic?
I am scheduled for a battery of tests over the next fortnight due to concerns about previous rebuilds, I am starting to suspect they will come up clear.
Looks like I will have to log more e-bike miles and a few less human powered miles.
Thanks again.
 
Geebee said:
I have a ride that I like to do...

Just so we all have the same numbers.

I'm assuming a 175 lb rider and 100 lb bike,
so if you use lower numbers you will get better results.
 

Attachments

  • hill climb.gif
    hill climb.gif
    3.4 KB · Views: 2,871
Putting it in wattage terms compared to human output capacity made me sit back and look at some of the riding I have done (including doing the mountain ride on consecutive weekends along with my normal riding schedule), and my current health issues may well be due to pulling to many amps, to often out of my organic battery pack. A bit like your abused lipo's

Could be -- I'd think that depends on the medical condition. Total work will be the same no matter the watts one is pulling since work = power X time.
The total wearing on joints effected by osteoarthritis, for instance, may be the same no matter the speed ridden. But a cardiac or asthmatic condition which diminishes cardiac or lung output to XYZ % of normal, may be more strained by instantaneous power load than total work load....perhaps that's something to discuss w/the doc?

I am scheduled for a battery of tests over the next fortnight due to concerns about previous rebuilds, I am starting to suspect they will come up clear.

I hope so too! Whatever the tissue issue, you're in the kind of shape I hope to be after another year or three of riding. I pedaled my bike unpowered for 5km the other day, and thought that was pretty good for me! I was a long distance runner and tennis player in high school, so I never built up those leg muscles. Now facing middle age-ness, and watching my parents and grandparents have difficulty ambulating, building leg strength seems extra important.

Looks like I will have to log more e-bike miles and a few less human powered miles.

In and of itself, not a bad thing :)

Thanks again.

No prob. I've gained so much from these forums, it's nice to actually be helpful myself from time to time :)
 
Back
Top