How to test throttle

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How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Wed May 05, 2010 4:14 pm

Any help is apprerciated but cliff note question below.

****Is there a way to sweep test the throttle or any way to ensure properly wired with diff color coding?*****

EDIT for ANSWER - Quite simply with an external power source as suggested by Amberwolf
Test the throttle. Testing a hall-effect throttle requires a 4.3 Volt DC power source and a Voltmeter. Apply 4.3 Volts DC positive to the throttles red wire and 4.3 Volts DC ground to the throttles black wire. Attach a Voltmeter between the black wire and the green or blue wire and twist or push the throttle. The Voltmeter should vary between zero and 3+ Volts. If the throttle has zero or low output Voltage that points towards a bad throttle.
SOURCE http://www.electricscooterparts.com/tro ... oting.html

**********
Setup;
Brushed Crystalyte sparrow rear hub motor
Kelly 48100 controller
Luyuan throttle with yellow, red and green wiring and 2 large red to switch. And no led batt. meter on this one (old one had same col's as dia.)
Old throttle is definately dead. New one looks taken off a scooter and not purchased new. I had to lengthen all wires.
Turnigy amp meter (not installed yet but have controller settings very conservative until it runs).

This is how I did my wiring differences being that;
I fused the controller pwr wire #9 (bought 2 and 3 amp fuses but misplaced so I have a 30 in there).
And of course my throttle wiring is different. Bought what I could get quick plan to change to 5V+ style later they look nicer.
Image
Just a fuse and switch cut off at right, no contactor.

I put an LED in just now to see if I could get an error code but nothing.
Which Kelly manual says, I have no power to controller but I can program it and it won't allow that without power.
The hub motor is not the culprit, runs with power direct.

I have 2.5V out of the controller where I should have 5V
and .2V on the other. No changes if I twist the throttle.
I used the big red ones to the switch attached to the throttle as my power to the controller
I don't have a batt. LED meter on the throttle so my yellow wire isn't the same.
I have yellow as ground
red as constant 5V (getting 2.5)
green to blue which is what I want to test to see if I have another bad throttle (looked like a take off part when purchased).
My throttle reponse is 3 and set for 20-90%

I don't know what else to say but it won't freaking run. 2 days I've taken off work this week and I just can't afford another LOL
We have a local e-bike shop and they really don't know anything beyond selling a prebuilt and Bionx systems.
Any recommnedations in Toronto? I want to get my battery looked over once it's all running. (had 55V coming out of it today)
Last edited by Chillboy on Thu May 06, 2010 6:49 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Wed May 05, 2010 4:24 pm

Another queston. What are these "KTY83-122 thermistors" for? I got 10 of them with the controller.
http://www.kellycontroller.com/product_ ... cts_id=314
Should I have them inline somewhere? Is it just to monitor the actual hub motor temp (with a probe or something)?
I don't think it's at all related to my problem.

Also the pre-charge resistor I just put into the fuse holder instead of the fuse upon initial startup of the controller.
Should I wire it across the fuse (as was in the diagram cut off) and Kelly recommends the across the contactor.
But don't they get hot??
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby amberwolf » Wed May 05, 2010 8:06 pm

If you put a resistor in place of a fuse, then the resistor will drop voltage across it, and is not going to blow when something shorts out (at least, not quickly enough to matter, and when it does it'll probably burn first, or set something else on fire from the heat). That means that if for some reason you had any kind of failure in wiring, motor, controller, etc, that caused a high enough current condition for the fuse to blow, it'll just keep sucking current till either your batteries die or something else does. That's why fuses are used--if rated correctly they'll prevent that. ;)

Precharge resistor needs to be used as they described--parallel to whatever switch you use to supply power to the controller, to precharge it. If you use it right, it won't get hot because it isn't going to have any appreciable power thru it for any length of time.

If it's a hall throttle, there are threads around that explain how to test hall sensors with a meter and 5V power (from your controller or elsewhere).

If it's resistive, then you just measure it with an ohmmeter.

Some controllers use resistive throttles only, or have a programmable mode switch. Make sure you're using the right kind or it won't work.

If you don't get 5V out of the controller where it says it's supposed to have it, even with the throttle not connected, you need to check your supply wiring to the controller, and then if it is all correct talk to Kelly because something is wrong, either with the controller, the documentation, or the way it's being set up.

Fuses need to be rated for the peak current you will pull thru them. If they're too small (like 2 or 3A) they will just blow as soon as you start. If they're too big, they won't blow when a failure happens that they were meant to protect from.

If you had the turnigy hooked up you'd be able to troubleshoot a lot easier.

Thermistors you'd have to check documentation on the Kelly for that, or ask them.

If I understand correctly, you're saying that you're using a tiny low-rated switch on the throttle to pass power for the entire controller and motor thru; if that's the case, that switch will just fry.


One thing I would definitely recommend is that if you aren't going to use the parts and recommended ways of hooking something up that the manufacturer suggests, that you be sure you understand why they suggest those parts and connections, before doing things differently. ;)
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Wed May 05, 2010 9:08 pm

It's programmed it for 0-5V hall throttle which it is. I want the other kind but picked up the only one at local e-bike shop
which is less knowledgeable than me only selling scooters and bionx.
But I'm wondering if I can test the yellow, green and black wires on the throttle.

So I should put a contactor in it? The dia isn't mine it's off this site for alternate running with fuse.
I will put the proper fuse in it tomorrow when I buy another one.
The switch was the one I have at the battery not the throttle one when I tested the motor just to troubleshoot it out.
I'm only programmed 50% for 20A until it runs. Then I'll cut down all the wires as much as I can and make it permanent, for a while.

But everything checks out but low voltage (2.5V) at controller constant 5V and I don't know how to check the throttle.
I will def. wire in the Turnigy before going back at it. I even made a nice mount out of the bike lock one and got a bag, still needs work though.

My background is 12V only car audio. I have read here a lot but searching seems to only bring up recent threads and even in quotes I'm not finding if
I can test the throttle. I tried using the ground off the control, nothing..? Bad throttle x2. The first one I believe could have fried with old 36V controller
wired backwards. I am not as new :)

Full schematic without cutout viewtopic.php?f=2&t=278&start=360
Resistor is around fuse. I used the holder to precharge controller only. I will try it in and watch the temp.
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby amberwolf » Wed May 05, 2010 10:05 pm

Chillboy wrote:But I'm wondering if I can test the yellow, green and black wires on the throttle.

Yes, but you'll need to look up the hall-testing posts in various threads around ES--it's been discussed more than a few times with various ways to do it. Might be easier to use google to search the forums than the actual search function, though. Most of the time it is in various motor-testing or motor-hookup-question threads.

So I should put a contactor in it?

It's "safer", if using high currents, but not necessary for most typical ebike currents. Basically the contactor means you don't have to find a switch rated for the DC (not AC!) voltage and amps that you are putting thru it; the contactors are designed for DC. Then you can use just a little bitty switch to turn the contactor on, like a tiny keyswitch off a computer case or something, up on the handlebars.

A switch is not even required, if you just plug and unplug the battery as needed, but I'd highly recommend at least an easy-to-reach-while-riding switch or cutoff loop (an anderson multipole with just a loop of wire you can reach down and yank out in emergencies, that plugs into either the positive or negative battery-to-controller wire).

But everything checks out but low voltage (2.5V) at controller constant 5V and I don't know how to check the throttle.

If the controller's low voltage isn't right, nothing will work. You'll need first to find the reason for it to be wrong, and fix that, before you bother with anything else. :)

I tried using the ground off the control, nothing..? Bad throttle x2.

If you don't have 5V and ground for the throttle, you won't get any output from it. Until you fix the controller LV problem there's no way to test the throttle, unless you have a separate power supply or battery to test it with.

Resistor is around fuse.

Needs to be around switch. Around fuse does nothing for precharging, unless you're pulling the fuse to disconnect everything from power each time(not recommended).
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Thu May 06, 2010 6:42 am

4.3V battery wired to red (constant 5V) then check green/blue wire for sweep (up to 3V).
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/tro ... oting.html

I emailed Kelly just now explaining the LV.
Hoping for good news!!

Thanks for the help Amberwolf!

More new guy style questions.

If you put a resistor around a switch won't it hold power in the circuit constantly or only when the motor demands it?
Since I wired a fused switch on the controller 5V power line would this be ok if above is true?

I assumed that it could go on a contactor because they snap shut to make connection so the resistor wouldn't be inline
when off. At least the one in a heating machine we built at work off an Omron controller works like that, the snap is
quite loud, part of the reason I didn't want one on a bicycle.

Is this contactor suitable for my setup?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MEWAX:IT
*brushed hub motor can take a max of 30A continuous, controller is 40A continuous 100A peak, battery is 15Ah 2C.

me=
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Re: How to test a hall sensor type throttle

Postby jateureka » Sun May 09, 2010 7:07 am

If you don't have a handy 5V source you can use a couple of 470 ohm resistors to make a voltage divider on one of those little 9V disposable batteries.

OR

If you have built the motor hall sensor tester at the bottom of this post http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484#p81888
I have used this tester to test both a generic thumb throttle and a Wuxing 5 Star S29-DX 1/2 twist throttle by connecting as follows:
tester '-' to throttle 0V black and DMM black lead,
tester 'G' to throttle +5V red and
DMM set to Vdc, red lead to throttle hall signal wire green and check for voltage swing when twisting throttle open.

I generally get a swing of between 0.8V and 2.8V on the DMM and the green LED on the tester will be lit continuously if the hall sensor is working OK. [Note approx 2V is dropped across the green LED in the tester].
If the LED is blinking it's a good indication you have an intermittent cable/wiring fault.
Last edited by jateureka on Tue May 11, 2010 4:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby hmbab2000 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:27 am

I too am having throttle issues with a Kelly controller.
I'm using the KDS36200.
Same as what you have diagramed.

Mine is working, however my throttle is rated at 4.3-5 volts.
The controller wants 0-5 volts.
I've got a throttle on order that is rated 1-4.3 volts.
But your throttle will not work at all?
I'm having high speed engagement issues.
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Mon May 10, 2010 1:47 pm

I took 3 AA batteries and made a 4.8V power supply and I get .98V at the green wire with no sweep when I twist the throttle.
My wiring is red-5V, yellow-gr, green 0-5V. I did like the built in switch that I was using to turn my controller on, but if that's all the whole throttle is going to do for me...damn..I'm sick of bad throttles so I think I'll order a 5K ohm style one and try my luck again.
If I wire the power to green and test red wire I get 2.6V??? Suspiciously like my readings off the controller.
At least it wasn't me this time :) :(still
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby amberwolf » Mon May 10, 2010 7:17 pm

If there's no sweep on the throttle's output but only a steady voltage, it's probably not working right (or at all). There are some hall sensors that require a resistive pullup to 5V on the output (or a pulldown to 0V) But if that was the case, I'd expect a lower voltage at the output pin, like maybe 0.5V to 0.7V, rather than 0.98V. However, it could just be that particular hall sensor only goes down to 0.98V with that throttle's magnet design.

To verify, put a 10Kohm resistor from the throttle signal output wire to the throttle 5V supply wire, and retest it's sweep output.

You mention in a previous post that it is set for a 0-5V hall, but I'm not aware of any typical hall throttles that output 0-5V. Usually it's 0.5V or higher at the low end, and maybe 4.5V or lower at the high end. That means if the controller is looking for 0V at zero throttle for it's "high pedal" check, then it is never going to enable itself and is not going to operate.

Using a pot throttle generally *will* give you 0V at the low end and 5V at the high end, assuming that's what the controller is actually putting out. Exceptions will be a pot that is mechanically limited by the throttle design to not go all the way to one end or the other. You can test this with a meter though (with the whole throttle not connected to anything else), to see if it's resistance goes to zero between the signal wire and ground when at zero throttle, and to zero between signal and power wire when at full throttle.
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Tue May 11, 2010 8:44 am

I felt like an idiot but only for a sec. cuz frankly my throttle works which is so much better than pride :D
At work yesterday I had 3 AA taped together and tried all combinations and got above results = nothing exciting.
This am at home I dug thru my 9 year old box of electronics I let him tear apart and got a good 3-AA holder off a remoter something or other and can confirm

wiring for Luyuan scooter 3 wire style throttle is;
red to +(5V)
green to ground
yellow is the sweep = .87 to 4.09

I'll check that again on the bike with power off the controller and that should give me my throttle range settings :)
cxl work today, hopefully I'll post tonight how great my bike runs!

Thanks to all for your input!!!
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Re: How to test throttle

Postby Chillboy » Tue May 11, 2010 12:04 pm

Foot Switch---------------------Disable
Throttle Sensor Type---------0-5V
Throttle effective starting position-----20%
Throttle effective ending position------80%
Max armature current---------------80%
Startup Delay Time----------------2 seconds
Main Contactor Hold Duty--------30%
Half Speed in Reverse------Disable
High Pedal--------Enable
Motor Top Speed------100%
Load Type-----------Median Load
Under Voltage-------43 Volts
Over Voltage--------56 Volts
Throttle Up/Down Rate-----3
****recommended settings for startup with Kelly controller
This guy gave up on the Kelly controller, really mixed reviews the smaller ones seem to have better luck.
http://www.modifiedelectricscooters.com ... IC_ID=1008

I had 42V low and 55V high and throttle start at 10% and motor top speed at only 50%.
Changed the settings to this after verifying the throttle was working on bike and it runs!!!
Hub seems to be spinning pretty good hanging in the basement.
I believe it was the throttle settings. I will try setting them closer to the actual output later.

I'm not getting excited to go ride, yet.
I'm wiring the Turnigy now and then it's ride time, then play time with settings!!!

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:):):)

I thought I posted that but it's been sitting since I actually finished up so lets continue.

Left the motor speed 100% and immediately blew the 30A fuse, comforting actually as someone else claimed way lower than rated voltage from their Kelly controller. This one is rated 40A cont. 100A peak.
Set it to only 50% output and went for a short (cold) ride. Pulls like a bear compared to it at 36V and the 48V scooter :twisted:

Hell YEAH!!!!!

I don't have enough wire left to do the Turnigy so I'm leaving it until I get some nice multi-stand 10ga at the stereo shop and then it's rewire time.
So much better when it works!!
I'd like more power already but next upgrade will be a brushless hub.
My Sparrow motor according Crystalyte rep/controller tester will will start melting brushes over 30A.
I did see a front one going for only $100..I'd like to buy more battery next but made a rookie decision when I got the original kit.

I'll post a real review on it later when it's fully going and I have some readings.

Thanks again for all the input.
I balanced my other batteries in the meantime and learned a wealth of e-info along the way.
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