Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

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Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Sun May 23, 2010 1:12 pm

Since Building Non hub bikes is not nearly frustraighting enough....I thought it would add to the fun modding up a tiny controller.

I present the e-crazyman 48v-350watt butchery thread......for those like me. (handy with a wrench & electricly stupid)
Board model EB206-A-3

#1) Learn how to flash the MCU to be able to fine tune the controller once modded. (done)
(edit soon to add diagram for flash cable & links to the pro's)

#2 Upgrade the capacitors with low ESR rated caps & up them to 100 volt ratings (should we decide to push the linits)

#3) Change out the FET's for some higher grade (i have some I picked off methods) if you have a favorite use them, I used real irfb4110's

First I have a question for the pro's:
Is there any reason to upgrade C3 & C4 to anything other than the 25v100uf that are there? (I believe it is the 12v buss & isolated. not effeced by any of these mods)

Image

Here IS whats been done.
1st the unmodified unit:
Image

solder wick to mop up all the solder used to build up the traces: before:
Image

After:
Image

This is the new set of 4110's in position & ready to mate to the board:
Image

Instead of building the traces with lots of solder & heat. I thought I would use some #14 copper wire. Like this:
Image

Now Is Where I will deviate form the norm. I intend to modify The standard "tiny box" the controller is housed in & add a real heatsink to the fet bank.
Another item is to upgrade the Phase wires to #10 AWG & solder them to the bottom of the board right at the fet's (mostly because I forgot to open the holes up when I had the board stripped)

I would never have attempted any of this if not for the info provided by Methods, Knuckles,mwkeefer, dnmun, Jeremy Harris,Gwhy & others.

Next I will size the R1 resistor to operate on 84v & see how it performs.

PLease any electronics minded guru's.....Have I missed anything? I really only have a mechanics understanding of these components. No real creative input at all. I am just a gifted mimic on this kind of thing.

Any words of warning, advice, programing parameters & encouragment are allways welcome.
Last edited by Thud on Mon May 24, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by dnmun » Sun May 23, 2010 1:24 pm

don't blame me, it's all knuckle's fault, methods is demented by the need for speed.

i like the use of solid wire for the bus bar. copper conducts better than solder anyway i think. i don't think you can get 10AWG into the phase wire holes, but 12G will handle up to 40A without getting too hot too. way cool.

man you elevate working to an art. you actually put down a towel on the kitchen table so you don't destroy the table? or is that the carpet? hehe.
Last edited by dnmun on Sun May 23, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by olaf-lampe » Sun May 23, 2010 1:32 pm

Looks professionally soldered IMO :D
I would suggest using kapton tape instead of silicon rubber. Hot glue to fix the Capacitor.
You can solder the 10AWG wire from above. Just cut off the strands that will not fit in.

Other than that: Ready to take off
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by gwhy! » Sun May 23, 2010 2:37 pm

Looks good so far Thud :wink:

Good move on the re-housing and soldering the phase wires underneath the board and adding A bigger heat sink. The housing I used was just about 1.5 times deeper than the original box but this allowed a much more substantial heat sink to be fitted this has defo helped me in not destroying my controllers with the abuse I have put them through :mrgreen:

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by liveforphysics » Sun May 23, 2010 5:25 pm

Looks good Thud!
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Sun May 23, 2010 7:14 pm

Thanks for the props guys,

No answers for my questions? I will asume (very dangerous) that it looks about right.

Dnmun said:
"man you elevate working to an art. you actually put down a towel on the kitchen table so you don't destroy the table? or is that the carpet? hehe."


LOL, this is my "Lab" literly a 4' x 6' room eeked out in the basement for me to tinker in. Its all drywalled & echos teribly. (listen to how loud the video's I shoot in there sound) I will take a sweeping shot & show you that the towel is so I can "work" on top of another layer of projects :lol: .

The 6 fet board is well documented in schematic form. But finding specifics regarding others modding attempts is tough.
Another specific list of questions, Thanks in advance.

#1 the power resistor R1 is the only thing powering the LM377 12v regulator, as I see it the 5v buss runs directly down line from threre.
Q: Since the 116 chip is so easy to program, do i need to modify any resistors to affect LVC? (as described in detail in other threads)

I am assuming that the LVC programing function will act as a back stop if nessisary. (really a moot point as this is not going to be used as a distance rig that would get anywhere near LVC points...Just curious)

Also to defeat the "saftey current"circut (that was causing the 1/4 throttle cut out issues) I am programming this using the 12fet setting & adjusting the values acordingly.
Any one care to school me on all the ramifcations of this trickery? It would be a nice disscusion :)

So, unless I hear diferently soon, I will be fireing this up with a single R1 mod to get voltage & current to something the LM317 can handle.

So if I drop...Lets say a 1k-3ish watt resistor in R1, I am good for 24 cells (88.8v nominal). Ohm's law, don't fail me now!

So other than my education, is this thread of any use to anyone?
Thanks Again for all the help & encouragment ES. Thud.
Last edited by Thud on Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by AussieJester » Sun May 23, 2010 7:30 pm

dnmun wrote: i don't think you can get 10AWG into the phase wire holes, but 12G will handle up to 40A without getting too hot too. way cool.
.


I drilled out the board to fit 10awg in my 12fet i would assume the same could be done on a 6 fet controller?

Nice work on the trace there Thudster always taking things to the extreme hehe

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by dbaker » Sun May 23, 2010 8:16 pm

Looks great, Thud! What current do you expect to run? What motor are you matching to this?

I just finished putting Hall sensors on a Turnigy HXT C80100-130 and an Astro 3220 5 turn and will be using a 12 fet controller from my spare pile to start once I finish mounting a motor to a bike.

It is always great to see pictures of controller mods.

Dave

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Sun May 23, 2010 8:38 pm

Thanks Dave,
the short answer is....I don't know :oops:

I originaly bought these contrllers to run some smaller 63mm outrunners. But since all my rc stuff fried, I am spinning an 80-85-170kv.
(I have the larger versions also)
I only have room in my battery box for 10 6cell packs, Sooo i will prolly be running 18s3p (66.6v) for power initaily.
Given my discusion with LFP earlier, I think i will start with some low phase & battery currents & step up form there, it will either blow up or I will get happy once i feel the performance is where it needs to be to run with the gasser's down in Ohio.
(anxious to try my monster sprocket also)
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by amberwolf » Mon May 24, 2010 6:30 am

Thud wrote:So other than my education, is this thread of any use to anyone?

It will be, once I have time to actually read it instead of skimming... I don't have any answers for the questions yet, but smarter people than me have already answered. :)

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by cell_man » Mon May 24, 2010 8:24 am

Looks good and I really must do something similar so I can drop the 12Fet bricks I'm now using. Not looking to run as high volts as you, but would like about 50A current limit (battery) if possible. What current are you looking to run?
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by TPA » Mon May 24, 2010 9:47 am

My hat is off to you Thud.

Would that everyone included so much detail for all us electrically challenged folks out here.

Another great thing to do would be to keep post #1 fully updated with everything that works, and your final results so that it can be more readily used as a reference. :D
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Mon May 24, 2010 1:09 pm

TPA,
Thanks.
That is exactly my intention....
A short primer to explain what I know & add more & better photo's & some of the programing files for ease also. We'll see how it turns out... :P

Still no Warnings from the electronic Guru's....
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by number1cruncher » Mon May 24, 2010 3:43 pm

Thud wrote:#1 the power resistor R1 is the only thing powering the LM377 12v regulator, as I see it the 5v buss runs directly down line from threre.
Q: Since the 116 chip is so easy to program, do i need to modify any resistors to affect LVC? (as described in detail in other threads)

I am assuming that the LVC programing function will act as a back stop if nessisary. (really a moot point as this is not going to be used as a distance rig that would get anywhere near LVC points...Just curious)


As usual, I can't answer this, but I would like the answer. Bump!

I will venture to say this: I don't think limiting your LVC in programming will protect the controller from high voltages if the incorrect resistors are present. The resistors physically reduce the voltage so the voltage regulator doesn't get fried. The LVC in the programming is to protect your battery pack through logic.
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by amberwolf » Mon May 24, 2010 11:08 pm

Thud wrote: Is there any reason to upgrade C3 & C4 to anything other than the 25v100uf that are there? (I believe it is the 12v buss & isolated. not effeced by any of these mods)

Based on the circuit shown, I see no reason to worry about those two.

You could still open up the holes for the larger wire, or you can just solder the wire directly to the bottom of the board instead. it'd have better strain relief if it goes thru the board though.

Regarding the towel, if you can make sure it is cotton and slightly humid-ish, so that it does not generate too much static. If it's synthetic, don't use it for that. ;) Big ESD events don't always outright destroy things, but sure do a great job of damaging them in insidiously hidden ways that come back to bite you later. :P


Q: Since the 116 chip is so easy to program, do i need to modify any resistors to affect LVC? (as described in detail in other threads)
Based on what little I remember of the threads I researched for repair/mod info a month or two ago, I think it's all in firmware.

I am assuming that the LVC programing function will act as a back stop if nessisary. (really a moot point as this is not going to be used as a distance rig that would get anywhere near LVC points...Just curious)

If you mean that the LVC will shut off the controller once voltage drops below that, then AFAIK yes.

If you mean will the LVC protect it from anything else...probably not.

Also to defeat the "saftey current"circut (that was causing the 1/4 throttle cut out issues) I am programming this using the 12fet setting & adjusting the values acordingly.
Any one care to school me on all the ramifcations of this trickery? It would be a nice disscusion :)

I don't know this for sure...but if you tell the controller it has more current handling ability than it really does, it may surge more current thru the power stage than it can handle and they will become Magically Operated Smoke and Fire Emitting Transistors that no longer magically operate or transistoratisize, but still emit smoke and fire. :P

If the only consequence to the overcurrent is that heat build up in the normal controller case would cause failure, then your better heatsink would potentially fix this. If the heat build up is too fast in the FETs themselves, then it'll still have the potential for smoke regardless of heatsinking, just take a little longer to do.

As long as you are not pushing the FETs themselves past their current ratings (which degrade quickly as they get hot) or their thermal limits, it'd probably work.

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Tue May 25, 2010 6:53 am

Many thanks Amberwolf,
For taking the time to check out my work.
I am thinking It will be a very tough little controller when I am finished.

Here is a link that takes us through the discovery & trouble shooting of these small controller "cutting out" issuses:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16910
I have yet to form an opinion on the reason this circut is so touchy on these models, It is a great saftey feature if that was the intent.

I know that these guys were haveing the same issues also:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12616

I am certain the low resistance & high rpm of the smaller motors (non hub) mandate the higer efficancy MosFETS
to get to survival levels of performance. I am just learing enough to realize we need some real power handling units & soon. (I hope the real engineers are making progress on the open source 300 amp units soon 8) )

Oh, my towels are 100%cotton & the humidity in west Michigan rarly drops below 80% (be in the 90's soon enough)
not quite Costa Rico but never dry. I worry more about doing something really dumb like setting the board down on a screw driver or a lead triming. :shock:

My only real question's remaining are on programing settings.
Once I modify the shunt (solderd 1/2 shut) to lower the resitance, (thus matching the ratings of a 12 FET controller) I am wondering if the values will be askew enough to make havok on the LVC programed settings. Logic tels me that it should be fairly close. (howerver I failed LOGIC in High school :lol: )It should be easy to test though. Once that is determined this should become a really nice controller for a comuter. (even better for the hub crowd)

#1crucher,
If I understand correctly, the Main function of Low Voltage Cut off limits are to protect the MCU unit from an under voltage event. I don't think controller builders give a hoot about the batteies & their life.
(thats fetchers & GGoodrums BMS Job :D )
Fire works happen if the MCU shuts down in mid signal & leaves a couple FET's turned on at the wrong time.
The R1 resistor will be sized based on pack voltage to keep the 12v regulater from over working (with these mods the controller could be pushed to 100v potentialy)
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by amberwolf » Tue May 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Thud wrote:Here is a link that takes us through the discovery & trouble shooting of these small controller "cutting out" issuses:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=16910
I have yet to form an opinion on the reason this circut is so touchy on these models, It is a great saftey feature if that was the intent.

I know that these guys were haveing the same issues also:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=12616

I'll have to look thru that again and see.


Once I modify the shunt (solderd 1/2 shut) to lower the resitance, (thus matching the ratings of a 12 FET controller) I am wondering if the values will be askew enough to make havok on the LVC programed settings.

AFAIK, the LVC has nothing to do with the shunt. The LVC is simply measuring incoming battery voltage, to see if it should shut down the controller. If the LVC is programmable on that one, then you just set it to whatever your battery LVC should be (or higher if you want some "wiggle room" before total cutout, so that it will start cutting out at high power demands first, but still let you limp a bit afterward without risk to the batteries).

Now, if the current being pulled is higher than your pack can put out without sag, then lowering shunt resistance to increase current capability is likely to cause issues with LVC activating as the pack drops in voltage. ;)

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by gwhy! » Fri May 28, 2010 1:04 pm

Thud,
When programming a 6 fet with 12 fet settings the only difference that I have seen is with the limiting the initial phase current ( if this is what it is ) my guess is that if you are using the standard fets in these controllers ( I think they are 75A constant and around 200A peak :?: ) the programable settings setup a time constant that will allow the max phase current for a set time, if this phase current do not come down within this time constant then the controller shuts down. So it would not be wise to use 12fet settings on a 6fet if the fets have not been upgraded, but with upgraded fets ( im using 120A constant and 800A peak ) it will be safe to increase this time constant which in turn will allow the higher phase current to be passed for a longer period. This is my understanding of the circuit. I am currently running my 6 fet with 18fet settings This has not effected the lvc of the controller that Im aware of ( as its set to the lowest as I use another form of battery monitoring ) but its still there to help protect the controller form something major happening should the voltage disappear from the senistive part of the controller to cause a major blow out. Hope this helps.

edit:
Opps :oops: , I have just re-read my post and I have some of things not quite right. The time constant is fixed with component values and selecting a different programming setup changes a length of time "window" at the chip. Also the max pulsed current not the peak current.
Last edited by gwhy! on Sat May 29, 2010 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Fri May 28, 2010 1:36 pm

Thanks for the input gwhy,

I don't know why I assumed the #s in parameter designer reflected actual ampers draw....but that makes more sence given the way the Block time settings function.(I am going to re-read a couple threads now)

Upgraded the FETs to irfb4110's.
caps low ESR 100v capable.....

The plan is to finish the modified box to house it in & get some real live testing done with the bike this weekend.
Need to be carfull, so I can race it next Sat. & see how it does against the gassers.

I will be starting wth some conservitive settings & only push it to where I feel its competitive. I hope that happens before it blows up.(I have Lyen's 72v 18 fet on the way for back up :twisted: )

I am using an turnigy 80/85-170 & hope it matches the perfomance of your scooter project.
Are you using your 12fet on the scooter? (please tell me it was the 6 fet model :P )
Thanks again. T
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by mwkeefer » Fri May 28, 2010 1:41 pm

Thud,

Great work so far... I read your thread and just figured id make a suggestion, I don't see any comment about programming for > 100% speed on any of your % settings... I think once you have upgraded (done) to the IRFB4110s you would see a real difference in accelleration and maybe even top end by tweaking that....

I could be wrong but observation has convinced me that because the 4110s are so much more efficient that they will in effect switch faster than the stock fets...

Another point... when using infineons (only 846 so far, sorry will check the 116 soon) to drive RC motors which I have adapted with Halls... setting phase current to approx 1.25 X that of primary current yeilded the fastest no-load RPMs (combined with 115% speed setting)... 1:1 acheived the same no-load RPM but 1.25 was as far as I could tweak the difference before the noload top RPM went down...

Hope it helps!

-Mike
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by gwhy! » Fri May 28, 2010 2:52 pm

Thud wrote:Thanks for the input gwhy,

I don't know why I assumed the #s in parameter designer reflected actual ampers draw....but that makes more sence given the way the Block time settings function.(I am going to re-read a couple threads now)

Upgraded the FETs to irfb4110's.
caps low ESR 100v capable.....

The plan is to finish the modified box to house it in & get some real live testing done with the bike this weekend.
Need to be carfull, so I can race it next Sat. & see how it does against the gassers.

I will be starting wth some conservitive settings & only push it to where I feel its competitive. I hope that happens before it blows up.(I have Lyen's 72v 18 fet on the way for back up :twisted: )

I am using an turnigy 80/85-170 & hope it matches the perfomance of your scooter project.
Are you using your 12fet on the scooter? (please tell me it was the 6 fet model :P )
Thanks again. T


Sorry Thud, it was a 12fet running the scoot :( but on a positive note it is running the stock fets (75A) the current limit on my 12 fet is set to 70A, because of the stock fets (rds) the controller gets rather toasty quite quickly so needs to be nursed. If I was to uprade the fets ( to the same thats what I have put into my 6fet controllers ) and rehouse/better cooling I am confident that I can push 130A constant through the 12fet ( maybe more ), As my 6 fet stands I know it will push 70A constant all day long with the mods that I have made. I think that it is the potentional massive phase current ( not just the heat ) that can kill all the types of controllers ( sensorless/sensored) and as we know the phase current will be at its max upto the maybe the first 1krpm of the motor so this is the danger zone.

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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by liteCycles » Sat May 29, 2010 7:01 pm

mwkeefer wrote:Another point... when using infineons (only 846 so far, sorry will check the 116 soon) to drive RC motors which I have adapted with Halls... setting phase current to approx 1.25 X that of primary current yeilded the fastest no-load RPMs (combined with 115% speed setting)... 1:1 acheived the same no-load RPM but 1.25 was as far as I could tweak the difference before the noload top RPM went down...


Mike,

Hey, do you know what no-load RPM you hit at the 1.25 setting? And how the no-load amp draw compares to sensorless controller?

I heard Thud posted a youtube vid with some info related to this but I haven't been able to locate it. :roll:
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Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by mwkeefer » Sat May 29, 2010 9:15 pm

I do have the stats from the experiments but they are at my main office, top of head I really don't remember but I do know my no load current is lower than most since my RC motors were converted to wye which really drops the noload current.

I will search for the documents when I get in on tuesday and post the results here...

-Mike
Regards,
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{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

User avatar
Thud
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2809
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:20 am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Thud » Sun May 30, 2010 3:26 pm

Mike,
Thanks for the tips, I am having fun figuring all this stuff out.
(modding meanwells last night & this mornig)

Here is the thread with the video'a posted:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=18578&start=30

the video really only quells the 6000 rpm myth currently circulating.
higher poll count hub motors may be more limited.
bottom of page i get 11,300 rpm's on a 116 6FEt

My best settings so far are right where you guys are suggesting. Way to little data logging for me to offer any recomdations yet.
Mwkeefer is the source there.
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

User avatar
Ypedal
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 13879
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: Moncton NB, Canada

Re: Thud Does A 6FET ecrazy man mod......

Post by Ypedal » Mon May 31, 2010 1:20 pm

Thanks Thud !!.. i can swing a hammer but the soldering iron i have not yet mastered lol.. the more pictures i see the better i feel about trying it. :wink:
ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
----------------
http://www.ypedal.com

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