The Custom Spokes Informations Thread

The Custom Spokes Thread

With all these new very powerfull motor coming on the market over the years, and the need to install that on strong wheel, there is some lack of info or availlavility about great strong spokes!!!

We can find many strong rims, troque arms, but still not custom spokes for the custom lenght we need!!!

I realize that cause something that appear very simple, turn out into a complicated process!!

Just matching a Double track 24” Sun rim on a 5303 isn’t as easy as it look like!!..

Usually a 24 pounds like the X5 motor MUST have at least 13 gauge spokes I think. 14 is too risky and 15 is just not an option.

Strong spokes on an X5 is not just for the torque it have.. but also due to the heavy mass it have and that need to be supported on every wheel bounce… often.. hard enough !!


Using the ebikes.ca Spokes Calculator I calculated that using a double track 24” rim that have an E.R.D of 472mm, I would need 128.5mm long spokes.

They can be sold custom made if you choose 14 gauge for sure!!.. but when you want something really strong like 13 or 12 gauge.. or 11 gauge.. it just become more complicated.

I still did not found any source of custom 12 spokes from now.

If anybody have an idea please put that link here !! ( ebikes.ca are only making 13 gauge single-butted spokes ( 14gauge for half the lengh)

Or… I would be glad to try to use some of my old 12 gauge spokes for 26” wheel and just cut them to the right length and make the thread myself.. but.. again.. What is the right threading tool and TPI ??

11gauge= ? TPI thread ?
12 gauge =? TPI thread ?
13 gauge = ? TPI thread ?
14 gauge = ? TPI thread ?


I just hope that this topic could become a reference for everybody that face the same problem than me.. so please if you have any great source of info and stores or manufacture that make custom spokes up to 12 gauge or 11 gauge please post it!!

Doc

I just don't see bicycle spokes cutting the mustard at extreme power without requiring frequent adjustment. Motorcycle rims and spokes are made for it, and you get to use rated tires as well. 18 months and I still haven't had to touch a spoke.

Hi DB,
Here is a supplier for industrial bike spokes. You may need to find a hub & rim combo to fit the spokes but they are available.
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/2010partspricelist.pdf

& for custom lengths of real motorcycle spokes this is the place:
http://www.buchananspokes.net/products/individual_stainless_steel_spokes.asp

I have bought from both of these places & they are easy to deal with.
Hope this helps.

Thanks John and Thud,

These motorcycle rims are attarctive and great idea.. but they are heavier and the tire you can put on them is also very heavy.. often 3 time the weight of a normal 2.5 otr 3.0" tire..
Unless i choose Trial motorcorss style tires.. there is no real solution for saving weight.

Thud, Thanks for that link , I contacted the guy from Buchananspokes, here is what i asked to him:

Hello, someone on our Endless sphere forum pointed your company speciality regarding customs spokes length.

We are a great electric bike and bicycle community of over 7000 members that often need special custom parts.. and as well as spokes

Our motor are hub motor that often can deliver 10hp and up at the wheel and we need good strong spokes.

Usually there is 14 gauge, but it’s often the weakest part on the wheel

To get more detail about my request, you can read this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18995

Me and many members need these custom spokes to accommodate our rims and hub motor and generally we want 13 or 12 gauge spokes.

I invite you to visit our forum is you wich.

You could become one of our great part supplier and I think it’s a great business occasion for you and a great solution for us

Could you help me for that?

Here is my request:

40x 128.5mm lenght spokes 12 gauge( best Stainless steel quality)

45x nipples (best quality)

Best regards

Stephan

Click to expand...

Doc

Doc,

Aren't your motors powerful enough to spin a motorcycle tire. You just don't put a bicycle tire on a motorcycle, and many of our bikes are just electric motorcycles with pedals. The tires are heavier so they don't blow out on you at high speed. Powerful ebikes are for riding, not carrying and the added weight has negligible effect, including only a split second longer to spin up to no load speed.

Once I put a new number out there, you guys are going to have to handicap yourselves with a 75lb (34kg) backpack on your back anyway, so what's a kilo or two that comes with increased safety? I'll have motorcycle tires front and back.

UPDATES

I found alot of interesting and usefull informations here :http://www.unicycle.uk.com/SpokeCalc.asp

such as:
Tips
If you use DT spokes and nipples (these nipples are about half as long as normal) add 1 to 1.5mm to the calculated spoke length.

Spoke length is measured from the inside of the "elbow" to the end of the spoke (including the threaded part).

Calculations for radially spoked wheels (straight-laced or zero crossed) have not been confirmed.

To Convert:
Inches to mm: divide by .03937
mm to inches: multiply by .03937

Spoke sizes

Spoke sizes
British (U.S.) 12 gauge is 2.6 mm
British (U.S.) 13 gauge is 2.3 mm
British (U.S.) 14 gauge is 2.0 mm
British (U.S.) 15 gauge is 1.8 mm
British (U.S.) 16 gauge is 1.6 mm

British (U.S.) 14 gauge is the same as French 13 gauge
British (U.S.) 13 gauge is the same as French 15 gauge


What is E.R.D ?: Answer:

Rim Diameter or "Effective Rim Diameter" (ERD) is the diameter on which you want the ends of the spokes to lie. Most people prefer it near the end of the spoke nipple.




Nominal Thread Size Example of Bicycle Uses
2.2mm x 56 tpi Common 2mm spoke threading





Doc

This is a real important Thread.... I think this is the first problem that appears in ANY setup, even the simply ones... with weight added by batteries and motor, and torque provided by motor, normal bike wheels becomes, at least, insecure....

I will keep an eye on this Thread, Doc....

- Fabio

some additional adds:

CEI (Cycle Engineers Institute) Thread Data
This thread series was superseded by BSC (British Standard Cycle) thread. The Thread Profiles were kept, but some of the less popular sizes were dropped

No Thread Profile Drawing Available

Angle of thread = 60 o.

Cycle Engineers' Institute (CEI) or British Standard Cycle (BSC)

These are different names commonly used for the same threads. 60 degree thread angle, rather than the 55 degree of BSW and BSF. For sizes from 1/4" through 1/2" by far the most common are 26 tpi, although 24 tpi appear as well. Most, but by no means all, fasteners on post-War BSA's (through the late '60's, when it got more complicated) were CEI. Although the thread form and pitch is different, the head sizes on CBI-threaded fasteners use the same wrenches as BSW/BSF.

I ordered mine from :http://newsonsportec.blogspot.com/2010/01/straight-pull.html

he make:

The length spoke: 80mm-310mm.

The material: stainless and UCP.

The Gauge: 8G, 9G, 10G, 11G, 12G, 13G, 14G




www.newsonsportec.com


E-mai: newsonsportec@gmail.com

Doc

SPOKES WRENCH tool

For those who are searching for the tool to adjust the spokes tension here is some good info to know about the wrench size you will need:

SW-0 (Black) 80 ga./.127” nipple/3.23mm ( for 14 gauge spokes) (DT/Wheelsmith nipples)
SW-1 (Green) 80 ga./.130” nipple/3.30mm ( for 14 gauge spokes) (most European)
SW-2 (Red) 80 ga./.136” nipple/3.45mm ( for 13 gauge spokes) (most Asian)
SW-3 (Blue) 105 ga./.156” nipple/3.96mm ( for 12 gauge spokes)


Common sizes of spoke nipples (flat-to-flat) include:

0.127" (3.23 mm) (DT/Wheelsmith nipples)
0.130" (3.30 mm) (most European)
0.136" (3.45 mm) (most Asian)
These values for size do not indicate the interior diameter, which is critical for fitting to the spokes

Just a heads up for you guys, I am making custom spokes from 15 to 12ga right now.

http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php?productid=406&cat=0&page=6

We have already had many orders placed for really short stuff going into Ebikes. I am getting a round of custom 12/13 butted spokes so that we can use standard bicycle rims with the fatter spoke head needed to fit tight into many hubmotors, and will also likely make 11/12 spokes just for the X5 crowd.


Hopefully I can be a valuable resource for people needing funky spokes.

FYI,

I've had The Wheelmaster (http://www.thewheelmaster.com/, http://www.thewheelmaster.com/MountGoats.htm) build a wheel (using a Sun Mammoth BFR rim and 10 gage motorcycle spokes) that's just bulletproof. Jim Burkman (the owner) is easy to work with, and does a super job.

I've run on the wheel for over two years now, and haven't had to do ANYTHING with the wheel/spokes.

Jim is easy to work with, I have chatted with him on the phone many times too. I don't quite agree with the gauge of spokes they use on thin wall rims, but we certainly don't have to agree for them to make quality wheels.

Anybody know any custom spoke vendors in europe? I need some spokes quick to get my ebike finished.

More options in other continents maybe useful too, especially America and Asia.

For all you UK / England ebikers out there I've found a vendor in london who has a agreed to consider making me custom spokes! At the moment all they have is 14G. I figured they'd work in my 20" rim. they shouldn't break too fast.

Custom spokes vendor: http://www.devercycles.co.uk/

johnrobholmes said:

Just a heads up for you guys, I am making custom spokes from 15 to 12ga right now.

http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php?productid=406&cat=0&page=6

We have already had many orders placed for really short stuff going into Ebikes. I am getting a round of custom 12/13 butted spokes so that we can use standard bicycle rims with the fatter spoke head needed to fit tight into many hubmotors, and will also likely make 11/12 spokes just for the X5 crowd.


Hopefully I can be a valuable resource for people needing funky spokes.

Click to expand...

John has made a three sets of weird length spokes for me. Nice clean threads and reasonable turnaround. He even refunded excess postage.

I'll be ordering all my spokes from him.

Larry Barefield

Once you've got your spokes you might want to check these helpful sites for wheel building and trueing:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

Getting mighty pissed with the nipples coming loose on my Magic Pie Golden Motor 26" wheel. 4th time now I've lost a spoke due to the nipples coming off and banging around the inside of my wheel.

Do you use a spoke thread locker?
Do you check spoke tension often & adjust as required?

johnrobholmes said:

Just a heads up for you guys, I am making custom spokes from 15 to 12ga right now.

http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php?productid=406&cat=0&page=6

We have already had many orders placed for really short stuff going into Ebikes. I am getting a round of custom 12/13 butted spokes so that we can use standard bicycle rims with the fatter spoke head needed to fit tight into many hubmotors, and will also likely make 11/12 spokes just for the X5 crowd.


Hopefully I can be a valuable resource for people needing funky spokes.

Click to expand...

Hi John

I am into building my first hub motor (disk) wheel with a Clyte 5x, in a Sun Mammoth BFR 26in.
Which pattern would you do?

I'm thinking about doing 3cross with 12ga butted spokes, but I have no idea of the result strenght with this heavy hub, nor the complications I might encounter.

If only I was near, I'd bring it straight to you.

Thanks for your help

You can only manage a single cross with the x5, even in a 26" mtb rim. It will really put the spokes at an angle too. I don't like lacing up those hubs into anything but motorcycle rims, they are just too large of diameter.

johnrobholmes said:

You can only manage a single cross with the x5, even in a 26" mtb rim. It will really put the spokes at an angle too. I don't like lacing up those hubs into anything but motorcycle rims, they are just too large of diameter.

Click to expand...

Thanks John,
I will do plain motorcycle pattern then. Single cross with alternate in and out off the hub, looks OK to you?

My concern is about torque and braking forces, since it will have to go up and down hill in the mountain ski trails; hard life for a wheel, even without a motor.

That is about the best you can do unless you use a motorcycle rim.

johnrobholmes said:

That is about the best you can do unless you use a motorcycle rim.

Click to expand...

Can you recommend a motorcycle rim for use with the X5304 and a MTB? Thanks.

The Mighty Volt said:

johnrobholmes said:

That is about the best you can do unless you use a motorcycle rim.

Click to expand...

Can you recommend a motorcycle rim for use with the X5304 and a MTB? Thanks.

Click to expand...

It depends on what your frame can stand, and whether you are willing to get rid of rim brakes. I have been using 16 and 17" rims on my recent builds. I'm not sure if a 19" rim would allow enough room for a tire in a standard frame.