Anyone got pedelec working on a XieChang 116?

Jeremy Harris

Jeremy Harris

100 MW
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
4,208
Location
Salisbury, UK
I'm struggling to get pedelec to work on my folder. I want to have a play with different ways of processing the pedelec signal, but can't even get the darned thing to work!

Here's what I've done:

I have a double pole switch that in one position connects the throttle voltage signal to the controller SP pad, and in the other position connects the pedelec sensor output to the TA pad.

+5v and 0V are permanently connected to both the throttle and pedelec sensor.

The controller works OK in throttle mode, but doesn't respond at all when in pedelec mode.

The pedelec sensor seems to be outputting pulses, as normal, when the pedals are turned.

The controller is programmed for 25A current limit, 70A phase current, 31.5V LVC, 1 sec block time, regen 1 (off), speed mode set to switch, all speeds set to 100%, limit at 99%, cruise control off, bar protect off, 1:1 design fast.

Having sat scratching my head for an hour or two I'm at a bit of a loss as to why pedelec won't work. I want to make some measurements on the way that pedelec affects the controller, but need to get it working first,

One thing I haven't tried yet is to leave the throttle connected whilst also connecting the pedelec sensor. I'm wondering if the controller needs to see some throttle voltage in order to work, although if so it seems a bit odd.

If anyone has any clues as to how the pedelec circuit works on this controller I'd be grateful. My guess is that it works the same way as on the older Infineon 846 controller, as they seem to share the same external interfaces.

Jeremy
 
Jeremy Harris said:
I'm struggling to get pedelec to work on my folder. I want to have a play with different ways of processing the pedelec signal, but can't even get the darned thing to work!

Here's what I've done:

I have a double pole switch that in one position connects the throttle voltage signal to the controller SP pad, and in the other position connects the pedelec sensor output to the TA pad.

+5v and 0V are permanently connected to both the throttle and pedelec sensor.

The controller works OK in throttle mode, but doesn't respond at all when in pedelec mode.

The pedelec sensor seems to be outputting pulses, as normal, when the pedals are turned.

The controller is programmed for 25A current limit, 70A phase current, 31.5V LVC, 1 sec block time, regen 1 (off), speed mode set to switch, all speeds set to 100%, limit at 99%, cruise control off, bar protect off, 1:1 design fast.

Having sat scratching my head for an hour or two I'm at a bit of a loss as to why pedelec won't work. I want to make some measurements on the way that pedelec affects the controller, but need to get it working first,

One thing I haven't tried yet is to leave the throttle connected whilst also connecting the pedelec sensor. I'm wondering if the controller needs to see some throttle voltage in order to work, although if so it seems a bit odd.

If anyone has any clues as to how the pedelec circuit works on this controller I'd be grateful. My guess is that it works the same way as on the older Infineon 846 controller, as they seem to share the same external interfaces.

Jeremy
Click to expand...

Hi Jeremy,
When I thought I had a pedal first controller I played around with this a little but to be honest I cant remember the exact details but there had to be throttle input before the pedelc stuff started to kick in .

Edit:
Im pretty sure I connected the thot as normal and was just feeding a pulse siganl into the pedal sensor input ( I cant remember what the pad name was )
 
Brilliant, gwhy, just what I needed!

Currently I have the switch wired so that it disconnects the throttle when it's in pedelec mode. It sounds like I need to re-wire it so that the throttle stays connected, with the switch just disconnecting the throttle when switched to throttle mode. I'll give it a try tomorrow and see if that fixes it.

Thanks,

Jeremy
 
Hi Jeremy,

The Xie Chang 116 does indeed works the same and have the identical characteristics of the legacy 846 MCU. There are actually two types of PAS (pedelec assist system) modules using different methods to trigger. The one that you have is likely utilized magnet pole sensing and feed to the PAS pad on the controller circuit board. You can definitely leave the throttle attaches along with the PAS with no side effect. The way I do it is to leave the +5v and GND connect for both the PAS and the throttle. The PAS module signal wire should be connect to the TA pad and the throttle signal to the SP pad as you already knew. To enable the PAS in the program, you simply change the "1:1 design" to slow. I personally love pedelec too. If this information did not help, can you take a picture and post it here. This way, I can determine if there is any missing "optional" electronic components that was not installed by your seller.

My very first electric bicycle was a Dahon Roo El folding bicycle from 2001. I still keep it as of today. :)

You and Gwhy are the members here I admired and I have really learned a lot from your posts. It is my honor to serve. :)

Greeting,
Lyen
 
Many thanks, Lyen, and thanks also for the kind words.

I think the key part is where you say that '1:1 design' needs to be set to 'slow'. I have a feeling that there may be a translation problem with the words '0:fast' and '1:slow' on the parameter designer software. I wonder if it should really be '0:false' and '1:true' ? If so, then that would explain my problem. It seems like this parameter turns pedelec on or off, from what you've said.

I'll pull the controller later this morning and re-programme it. With luck, changing the '1:1 design' setting may fix the problem. I hope so, because I quite like pedelec for assist on a bike and would like to try and improve its functionality.

Thanks again,

Jeremy
 
Both values, "slow" and "fast", work for the pedal assist. Are you sure you mounted the pedelec the right way? What kind of pedelec do you use?
Greetings
Martin
 
velorelax said:
Both values, "slow" and "fast", work for the pedal assist. Are you sure you mounted the pedelec the right way? What kind of pedelec do you use?
Greetings
Martin
Click to expand...

Thanks, you're right, I've just tried reprogramming my controller with '1:1design' set to '1: slow' instead of '0:fast' and it's still not working. As far as I can see, the pedelec sensor is working OK, it's the standard ring of magnets, pulse output type.

I think the next thing to try is to stick the bike in a stand, drag the 'scope into the main workshop and double check that the sensor pulses are actually getting through to the TA pad on the controller.

Jeremy
 
When I was playing with this, Im pretty sure I fed pulses into the ta pad ( but had no idea how many were need, I never seen a pedelc sensor and couldn't find much info about them ) But I did conculded that the pulse train that I was feeding in was way to fast because as soon as I started to give some throttle input the motor would just ramp up to max rpm until i stopped the pulse train on this pad. I dont know if this will be helpful or not, but though I would mention it just in case.

Edit:
Just for future reference Jeremy ( if you are scoping the output of you sensor ) what is spec of the pulses from a pedal sensor.
 
gwhy! said:
When I was playing with this, Im pretty sure I fed pulses into the ta pad ( but had no idea how many were need, I never seen a pedelc sensor and couldn't find much info about them ) But I did conculded that the pulse train that I was feeding in was way to fast because as soon as I started to give some throttle input the motor would just ramp up to max rpm until i stopped the pulse train on this pad. I dont know if this will be helpful or not, but though I would mention it just in case.

Edit:
Just for future reference Jeremy ( if you are scoping the output of you sensor ) what is spec of the pulses from a pedal sensor.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, gwhy. I've just loaded the USB 'scope software onto a spare netbook so will take it out into the workshop and see what the pedelec signal looks like after lunch. I should be able to post the waveform up here for future reference (assuming the crappy little netbook will drive the 'scope software OK).

The sensor looks like a standard Hall switch held close to a ring of magnets in a plastic housing that's riveted to the chainring.

Edited to add: This thing fooled me! I have another bike with a pedelec sensor and that puts out pulses, so I assumed that this one did too. Wrong............. This one (although it looks very similar to the other one) puts out what looks like a standard throttle voltage. I swapped the pedelec sensor over from the TA pad to the SP pad and it sort of works (although doesn't it seem to get the motor to go very fast). I'm going to take a closer look at the way the pedelec sensor voltage changes with crank speed to try and see what's going on.

Jeremy
 
Hi Jeremy,

For the feature option for "1:1 design", 0 actually means fake and 0 stands for real in Chinese from word to word translation. So you are correct that 0:false and 1:true.

In case you still could not get it to work, I can send you a voltage type PAS which does not requires connection to the TA pad on the controller board. See below:

The one on the left is the regular PAS module, whereas the one right is the voltage type PAS that you can plug directly to the throttle connector or connect it in parallel with your existing throttle. This is something new and just available recently. :)







Here's the video that shows using the hall effect type throttle and the voltage type PAS module with the ebike motor/controller hall/phase/throttle tester :
[youtube]Tdn7a6BLkG4[/youtube]

Regards,
Lyen
 
Hi Lyen,
On my EB206, 1:1 sur 0 gives a slow speed ramp, and immediat cut-off when I stop pedaling. 1 gives a faster ramp up, and the motor stops about 2 seconds after I stop pedaling.
Greetings
Martin
 
Thanks guys.

After an hour or two of probing around, and then taking apart the controller that the pedal sensor was designed to work with, I've solved the mystery!

The pedal sensor is a voltage output one, a little like the ones you kindly pictured, Lyen, but from an ebike manufactured a few years ago (the dates on the parts are 2007). The odd thing is that it needs a +12V supply, not a +5V supply to work properly. It works on +5V, but the output voltage range is only from +0.3V to +1.5V.

I discovered this by taking apart the controller that came with the bike (which I've never used) and tracing the wires. Although the throttle has a +5V supply, the pedal sensor is run from the +12V voltage regulator.

All I need to do now is re-jig the bike wiring (a fairly big job, as it's all in neat wiring looms.............) so that I can feed +12V to the pedal sensor, then all should be well.

Thanks for everyone's help, hopefully we've added a few more data points to our collective knowledge of all things ebike!

Jeremy

Edited to add:

I re-jigged the loom to power the pedal sensor at 12V and all is well. With a 12V supply this sensor outputs 0.8V for zero crank rpm up to about 3.6V for maximum crank speed, so mimics a Hall throttle fairly closely. It needs some fine tuning, because at the moment the pedal assist cut-in is a bit harsh, but at least I now have a working system to experiment with.
 
Hello Martin,

Thanks for your information. I will see the this option reflects other controllers as well. It is very good to know there is actually two programmable stages instead of just one. I appreciate it. :)

Regards,
Lyen

velorelax said:
Hi Lyen,
On my EB206, 1:1 sur 0 gives a slow speed ramp, and immediat cut-off when I stop pedaling. 1 gives a faster ramp up, and the motor stops about 2 seconds after I stop pedaling.
Greetings
Martin
Click to expand...
 
Lyen said:
In case you still could not get it to work, I can send you a voltage type PAS which does not requires connection to the TA pad on the controller board. See below:

The one on the left is the regular PAS module, whereas the one right is the voltage type PAS that you can plug directly to the throttle connector or connect it in parallel with your existing throttle. This is something new and just available recently. :)

Click to expand...

Lyen, does that PAS act like a switch or is it cadence sensitive?. ie Does it output full throttle voltage as soon as it detects movement or does the voltage ramp up with increasing crank speed?
 
Does this give a feeling like Bionx or does this basically make you faux pedal. Seems like you could even faux pedal backwards and still go forward. I would personally put this on a switch to prevent PAS from kicking in unexpectedly.
 
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