New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

[liveforphysics]

This is how to treat your HS35 motor.

Watch the end of the video. Plasma flame cock ring.

[methods]

any more tests - comparisons between HS and HT?

it seems HT is not really a good choice based on the reports from you?

Not really anything to compare right? They will perform identically if the ratio of wheel size/voltage/current are at correctly matched. When people go out and apply the same voltage to each hub in the same wheel it is not really a comparison that makes any sense.... It is like pedaling a bike in 1st gear and 8th gear and saying that one or the other is "better". One is suited to high voltage and one is suited to lower voltage as 1st gear is suited to low speeds and 8th gear is suited to high speeds.

It all boils down to what voltage you can run, what current you can run, what wheel size you can run..... your constants. I would love to run an HS in a 20" wheel with 24S on my downhill bike but the ground clearance is just not there - so in that case I think the HT in a 26" wheel with a little more voltage is appropriate. 15 minutes swapping parameters on Justins simulator will quickly show what the best compromise is for any set of constants. Most people start off limited with a predetermined wheel size, controller voltage limit, and controller current limit.

My bikes will be set up as follows:

Trike: HS in a 20" on 24S @ 150A
Downhill: HT in a 26" on 24S @ 100A

I have not simulated those but past experience with similar winds tells me that both will be great - with the 20"" HS being a little more exciting.

-methods

[wojtek]

excellent post - thanks Method!

[Doctorbass]

This is how to treat your HS35 motor.

Watch the end of the video. Plasma flame cock ring.

Luke.. Did you really think that this winding could handle 271 degree celsius ?

You know the max motor insutation temp rating class is H and it is 180 celsius.. you are JUST 90 celsius abobe

Now put one real beast.. An X5 !! and add a temp sensor on the winding. adn avoid going above 180

No kidding.. will you have a spare motor fo rthe death race?

Doc

[neptronix]

Sounds like, so far, these motors perform just like the 5xxx series, am i right?
It's just that they reach that ever-nagging thermal limit sooner..

Sounds like dual HS motors are the solution for good top speed.

[wojtek]

You guys are crazy!!!! simply can't find better compliment
Gratitude

This is how to treat your HS35 motor.

Watch the end of the video. Plasma flame cock ring.

[Arlo1]

I love it luke you are the first one to have a motor light on fire dyno testing your bicycle

[Kiwi]

You better write to Kenny and tell him his motor failed on its first run. What sort of lame ass, cant take 10kw with out bursting into flames toy motors is he trying to pedal us!


The worlds first electric internal combustion engine!

[liveforphysics]

Custom wind. 4 turn. 220degC wire.

This is how to treat your HS35 motor.

Watch the end of the video. Plasma flame cock ring.

Luke.. Did you really think that this winding could handle 271 degree celsius ?

You know the max motor insutation temp rating class is H and it is 180 celsius.. you are JUST 90 celsius abobe

Now put one real beast.. An X5 !! and add a temp sensor on the winding. adn avoid going above 180

No kidding.. will you have a spare motor fo rthe death race?

Doc

[Ypedal]

Smokin !!..

Well done sir !.

On the laptop, the Batt Amps reading from 3 to 6 ... don't seem right ? was that being recorded ?

Please tell me that was not the motor you planned to bring to the death race

[liveforphysics]

We weren't instrumenting amps on the dyno. Just with amp clamp.

This motor made the same output power at 10kw, 15kw, 20kw, 30kw, and 40kw (where it burst into flames).

And nearly identical output on the dyno at 8kw as 10kw. And this is with a custom rewind that was optimized copper fill, minimized end-turns etc.

Lesson here, is the motor tooth/magnet flux capacity is totally 100% saturated at 10kw input. And its way past its knee in the torque curve at 8kw.

For the hot rodders, feed it 5-8kw if you want to milk every drop its capable of outputting. Any more power than that made no change in output (just adds a boatload of heat).



This was my dethrace motor. I have a fall-back motor (x5303) that I will be using instead.

[Hyena]

GREAT BALLS OF FIRE!

For the hot rodders, feed it 5-8kw if you want to milk every drop its capable of outputting.

Excellent info man! Is that battery current or phase current ?

This was my dethrace motor.

Noooooooo!

I have a fall-back motor (x5303) that I will be using instead.

Yeah, but no cocks on that one haha

[liveforphysics]

That's measuring the 5-8kw as what was drawn from the battery.

I will try to get a stock x5 and stock 9c on the dyno with the 400amp 120v Kelly and start slowly creeping up the input power while watching the output power at the dyno and see where they reach the point where more power in doesn't give more power out.

This was how the power levels went.

8kw = 7.8hp out.
9kw = 8.9hp out.
10kw = 9.4hp out.
15kw = 10.2hp out.
20kw = 10.1hp out.
30kw = 10.2hp out.
40kw = 10.1hp out and plasma.


The stator and magnets just don't have more to give than 10hp out.

This was with a full custom rewind motor.

[methods]

Sounds like, so far, these motors perform just like the 5xxx series, am i right?
It's just that they reach that ever-nagging thermal limit sooner..

Sounds like dual HS motors are the solution for good top speed.

The simulator has both the 5300 series and the HS/HT series in its database. You can open two windows, enter comparable parameters, and see objective data right on the graph. Just about anything else is totally subjective.... Unless someone does tests back to back the results really don't mean much.

The simulator does not lie

These new motors are lighter - so yea they may soak out faster but in my experience if you are really hammering it the windings can smoke off long before the axle gets hot. I think anyone seriously considering over-volting must face the fact that some form of external cooling is necessary to maximize performance.

-methods

[voicecoils]

This was how the power levels went.
...
The stator and magnets just don't have more to give than 10hp out.

This was with a full custom rewind motor.

Here's the dicky hub's in/out efficiency:

liveforphysics_dickyhub_dyno.jpg (16.05 KiB) Viewed 1015 times

Good info & I'm impressed the efficiency stayed as high as it did so far over the motor's rated power but 10kW input is clearly as far as you'd want to go. Good luck at the Death Race!

[methods]

I think we need to add RPM to those numbers for them to be relevant unless Luke can say definitively that all of those tests were performed at the same RPM. Otherwise it is apples and oranges.

-methods

[karma]

We weren't instrumenting amps on the dyno. Just with amp clamp.

This motor made the same output power at 10kw, 15kw, 20kw, 30kw, and 40kw (where it burst into flames).

And nearly identical output on the dyno at 8kw as 10kw. And this is with a custom rewind that was optimized copper fill, minimized end-turns etc.

Lesson here, is the motor tooth/magnet flux capacity is totally 100% saturated at 10kw input. And its way past its knee in the torque curve at 8kw.

For the hot rodders, feed it 5-8kw if you want to milk every drop its capable of outputting. Any more power than that made no change in output (just adds a boatload of heat).



This was my dethrace motor. I have a fall-back motor (x5303) that I will be using instead.

nice. when you get the chance could you post a pic of the stater? im playing around with different insulators in the fill and would like to see how there's held up

cheers

[Arlo1]

That's measuring the 5-8kw as what was drawn from the battery.

I will try to get a stock x5 and stock 9c on the dyno with the 400amp 120v Kelly and start slowly creeping up the input power while watching the output power at the dyno and see where they reach the point where more power in doesn't give more power out.

This was how the power levels went.

8kw = 7.8hp out.
9kw = 8.9hp out.
10kw = 9.4hp out.
15kw = 10.2hp out.
20kw = 10.1hp out.
30kw = 10.2hp out.
40kw = 10.1hp out and plasma.


The stator and magnets just don't have more to give than 10hp out.

This was with a full custom rewind motor.

What if you up the rpm?????????????????????????????????? By winding it differernt or Changing the volts??????????

[Andje]

he wound it for maximum achievable copper fill without special machines i think; since it obviously topped out pretty soon, winding it different would only produce a tiny change in the motors maximum rpm; it is clearly being supplied with way more power then it can use, and any other copper fill is either unacheivable due to the difficulty in winding or is less copper fill then the 7*4? that i think he went with?
When the cocks caught fire i realized it was the most badass e motor test vid ever made. Also i love the way the cocks give you a sort of double ring semi transparent sort of thing when they are at high rpm.

[Arlo1]

he wound it for maximum achievable copper fill without special machines i think; since it obviously topped out pretty soon, winding it different would only produce a tiny change in the motors maximum rpm; it is clearly being supplied with way more power then it can use, and any other copper fill is either unacheivable due to the difficulty in winding or is less copper fill then the 7*4? that i think he went with?
When the cocks caught fire i realized it was the most badass e motor test vid ever made. Also i love the way the cocks give you a sort of double ring semi transparent sort of thing when they are at high rpm.

He found the most amps you an run but if you up the voltage and hold the max amps at the same then the Kw might be able to be increased....
Thing is luke was probably testing at such a hi voltage that testing at a higher voltage would not be easy to do!

[Andje]

i guess im saying that i think to increase his kv his winding size would have needed to decrease, and it might have burnt out at a lower amperage, but still only output 10 hp. His copper fill might have gone down in percent, so wouldn't that have more of an effect since it's being so massively overpowered one way or another? I know that turn vs voltage determines maximum rpm, but at 120v you approach maximum rpm from a carrying more voltage point of view more then even a controller point of view. I guess if i hooked up all 12 of my bats in series i'd have 288v 5ah

[Arlo1]

I guess if i hooked up all 12 of my bats in series i'd have 288v 5ah

And where do you get a 288 volt controler?
When ever you up the voltage and keep the KW the same the amps go down and this helps get the efficiency higher so.... Maybe a 100 mph hub motor at 200 volt for instance would be the ticket......

[Hyena]

It'd be nice to see a stock HS35 in a 26" rim repeating the same test with 100v 100a making up your 10kw. That's the most the vast majority of people are going to be running. Limit the power to 10kw though so as to not deliberately blow it up, but just compare the performance to the data you have already. Cock side cover would have to be put on though, to accurately look at the internal thermal differences

[liveforphysics]

This was 116v on a custom 4-turn wind with optimized copper fill, and in a 20" rim.

1340rpm no-load.

99% of folks are only going to have lower RPMs.

[John in CR]

.....The stator and magnets just don't have more to give than 10hp out.

Sure they do. Cut the wheel diameter in half, double the voltage, and have 20hp out for greater acceleration and same top speed.