New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by justin_le » Mar 28 2011 10:52am

itselectric wrote: Well, this very much the same thing with our local customers, cannot decided HT or HS. So, I am hoping to make another video comparison this coming weekend. A race up hill between HS3540 and HT3525. My assumption is the HT3525 should go up hill better then HS3540 due to early torque delivery from the motor. We will see...watch for coming video....

Ken
Hey Ken, as with all cases of the same motor option with just a different winding, if you are going up a hill where both motors are running the controller at the current limit, then you will get a marginal amount more torque from the slower motor due to 2nd order effect. This is exacerbated a bit by the fact that the HT3525 has a slightly higher copper fill factor than the HS3540 (63 strands vs. 60 strands). However, if the hill is not steep enough to cause the controller in the low speed motor to run at its current limit, then the higher speed motor will do the climb faster hands down.

If the myth continues that the slower speed motor winding leads to a higher torque motor, then ARRG I will want to roll in a grave. Crystalyte is not doing the scene a favour by using a High Speed / High Torque naming convention. It should be HS/LS for high speed, low speed. Since speed is already implied by the last two digits (40 and 25 kph respectively), then it's redundant anyways and H3540 and H3525 would be better.

Then we just need to find something funny for the 'H' to stand for.

-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by Ypedal » Mar 28 2011 11:02am

how bout H for Hubba !

Hubba-high Speed
Hubba-low Speed

:lol:

alright.. i'll be quiet now..
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by justin_le » Mar 28 2011 11:08am

Spacey wrote:I mean there is no CA Cycle Analyst connector on the Sensorless Controller 40amp 72V, was hoping there was so I could maybe use it with my CA and lower the LVC cut off.
Hi Spacey, I just put a posting in a different thread showing the tap points for a CD-DP connector with the newer sensorless controllers:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=26336

The throttle over-ride wiring is easiest done by shorting out R36 and then soldering a diode with the anode connected to the pad labelled SLA and the cathode connected to the green CA wire.

I'll arrange to have Kenny prepare a few samples with this CA-DP mod straight from China to make sure they can get it correct, and then hopefully it will be available direct from Crystalyte this way in the future.

-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Additional Comments on the (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

Post by justin_le » Mar 28 2011 2:38pm

Hey, there's been quite a lot revealed already about the Crystalyte 'H' motor series here so I'll try not to repeat stuff, but did want to add some of my own observations and testing results from a few months ago in case people are interested.

Construction Style

The actual motor construction as many people have pointed out is exactly like the Nine Continent 205mm direct drive motor with 46 magnets and 51 stator teeth that is made by dozens if not hundreds of domestic motor companies is China. This is not a 'Crystalyte' motor in the same sense that the X5 was, but it is Crystalyte finally making use of the much more economic and power efficient design style, and then improving the mechanics to better fit western bike standards.

The rear motors have use a 35mm lamination stack, while the front hubs use a much thinner and lighter 24mm stator width. This is necessary for the front hub to be narrow enough to properly fit a disk brake.
Front hub width.jpg
Front hub width.jpg (29.68 KiB) Viewed 12719 times
But it also means that the rear motors are 50% more powerful and have ~50% more torque output than the front hubs, and hence the front and rear options are NOT really motors of the same family. By comparison, the most common 9C hubs of this type have a 27mm stator width, sortof in between the front and rear Crystalyte 'H' motors. (9C also offer their motors in 24mm and 35mm widths, but most people ordering them for export get the 27mm.)

17mm Axle
The axle is 17mm diameter at the shoulder rather than 15mm which we see on 9C / Golden etc. This extra 1mm on the radius means that there is a lot more metal flat surface to go against the inside of the dropout. There is certainly no need for inside washers or spreaders:
17mm Axle.jpg
17mm Axle.jpg (44.63 KiB) Viewed 13020 times
Wire Exit
The wires for the motor exit a slot in the side of the axle rather than going through a hollow channel and coming out the end. This makes it WAY easier for attaching torque arms and changing around the axle hardware without having to snip off and reconfigure the connectors every time. The downside however is that it is a lot more difficult to waterproof, and this has been the demise of so many 400 and 5300 Clyte hubs. It looks like Crystalyte did a reasonable job of gooping and sealing the cable exit but only a season of wet weather riding will tell if this is effective:
Wire through Axle.jpg
Wire through Axle.jpg (23.9 KiB) Viewed 12720 times
Freewheel Fit
This hub uses the screw-on freewheel rather than a cassette freehub, no surprise. The axle on the freewheel side of the rear hubs sticks out 39mm to the shoulder:
Freewheel Axle Length.jpg
Freewheel Axle Length.jpg (22.62 KiB) Viewed 12719 times
That's enough to fit a 7 speed freewheel just fine:
Freewheel On.jpg
Freewheel On.jpg (34.22 KiB) Viewed 12719 times
However, an 8 speed freewheel will require a spacer washer:
8 Speed Freewheel Space.jpg
8 Speed Freewheel Space.jpg (34.17 KiB) Viewed 13020 times
Disk Fit
The best news for sure about these motors is the mount for the disk rotor. It's taken what seems like eons to get the chinese manufacturers to adopt an intrinsic 44m ISO bolt pattern for the disk rotors rather than the screw-on freewheel threads that used to be standard. However, in the case of 9C they only left ~15mm of caliper space between the rotor and side cover. Virtually all brand name calipers, especially hydraulic calipers, need at least 17mm or more of clearance. Both the front and rear 'H' Crystalyte hubs have an 18.0 mm standoff to the disk rotor mount, which is perfect:
Front Disk Clearance.jpg
Front Disk Clearance.jpg (25.84 KiB) Viewed 13020 times
The spacing from the axle shoulder to the disk face also measured correctly (10mm front, 15mm rear), so you should be able to expect a drop-in fit with a disk equipped bike and not have to do any shimming or adjustment of the caliper.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 3:26pm

Here is a picture showing the stator support change. The early prototypes that went out to retailers had a stamped steel support. The batch I received look like this
IMAG0930.jpg
Another small change to note is the change from socket head cap screws to cross head. The fasteners are glued in so be very careful for the first half turn.

Here are some measurements that Luke took from an HS35 as well. These could come in handy..... (16khz)

-methods
Attachments
IMAG0935.jpg
IMAG0937.jpg
IMAG0939.jpg
IMAG0940.jpg
IMAG0941.jpg
IMAG0942.jpg
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by justin_le » Mar 28 2011 3:29pm

Hall Sensors

On the samples that we got, there were no hall sensors and at the time it seemed that Kenny was adamant that they were only available sensorless, which was to me a bit of a showstopper. However, the motor laminations had the notches for the hall chips:
Space for Halls.jpg
Space for Halls.jpg (37.68 KiB) Viewed 12700 times
And methods had no problem getting Crystalyte to include them, so that is great.

Cogging Torque

There has been a number of people asking about how much drag torque these motors have. Well, it's a fair bit. I tested between 200-600 rpm, and the result is pretty linear so we can surmise it starts off at 0.8 N-m from a stall and is more like 1.2 to 1.5 N-m over the RPM range of interest:
No Load Torque.jpg
No Load Torque.jpg (29.49 KiB) Viewed 13001 times
That's pretty much exactly the same as the X5's. By comparison, the Nine Continent 27mm hubs have more like 0.8-1.0 N-m of drag at that rpm range:
9C Cogging Torque.jpg
9C Cogging Torque.jpg (28.86 KiB) Viewed 12700 times
All else being the same, we would expect 35mm 'H' series to have about 30% more cogging torque than the 27m 9C because it has 30% more iron and magnet width, but the actual cogging drag is 50% greater. So the hysteresis and eddie current losses are proportionally greater with this Crystalyte motor than with 9C. That could be because it uses stronger magnets, which at some point can greatly increase iron losses while only slightly increasing the output torque.

Dynamo Test Results

I independently tested all 4 of the motors (HS3540, HT3525, HS2440, HT2425) at both 36.0V and 48.0V on my dynamo using the Crystalyte 25A sensorless controller. I never got the 86% efficiency claimed by Crystalyte, it peaked at about 84% at 48V. In any case, the performance is pretty good and the measured output matches our simulator model spot on:
Dynamo HS3540.jpg
Dynamo HS3540.jpg (55.63 KiB) Viewed 13002 times
Initially I had the motors up there using the same naming scheme of XXYY where XX is the magnet width and YY is the turn count. However, now I've changed it around to be consistent with what Crystalyte has choosen, so if you go to
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator
the options Clyte HS2440, Clyte HS3540, Clyte HT2425, and Clyte HT3525 all refer to these hubs.

-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by groundproximity » Mar 28 2011 3:40pm

Justin,

which controller would you recommend ? (no sensors)
I don´t know if they´re going to sell only one sensored motor to a private customer.

Thanks,

Alexander
Last edited by groundproximity on Mar 28 2011 3:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 3:42pm

Luke is already up to his tricks.....

Apparently this is 15pcs of 14awg wire. Obviously he has been modifying the axle...
IMAG0946.jpg
Here is some of the same data confirming what Justin just posted but in a visual format (provided by Luke)
IMAG0948.jpg
IMAG0949.jpg
IMAG0952.jpg
IMAG0953.jpg
-methods
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 3:47pm

groundproximity wrote:Justin,
...
Did you use sensored, or sensorless motors for research and testing?
...
justin_le wrote: ...
On the samples that we got, there were no hall sensors
...
-Justin
-methods
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by groundproximity » Mar 28 2011 3:50pm

@ methods,

thanks - we must have pressed the submit button the same moment, that´s why :D
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by justin_le » Mar 28 2011 4:08pm

methods wrote:Luke is already up to his tricks.....

Apparently this is 15pcs of 14awg wire. Obviously he has been modifying the axle...

Here is some of the same data confirming what Justin just posted but in a visual format (provided by Luke)
The attachment IMAG0949.jpg is no longer available
Waitaminute, this one confuses me. It looks like Luke is measuring exactly 30mm across the laminations, while my own digital calipers showed a pretty exact 35mm:
35mm Width.jpg
35mm Width.jpg (25.5 KiB) Viewed 11916 times
Am I reading Luke's ruler and writing wrong or is this another discrepancy between the samples we got in January and the production shipment you got in March?

If that's the case then it throws all my dynamo tests out the water.

It also looks like Luke is suggesting it's a 10x6 wind that he's got, while the two units we received were 9x7 and 12x5

Hmmrrrrg -J
-methods
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by wojtek » Mar 28 2011 4:09pm

great job Justin! :wink:
and obviously big thanks also to Ken and Methods for sharing all those information with us!

hopefully now that some of you have already got the motors , we will see more smoking hot news!
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 28 2011 4:19pm

justin_le wrote:
methods wrote:Luke is already up to his tricks.....

Apparently this is 15pcs of 14awg wire. Obviously he has been modifying the axle...

Here is some of the same data confirming what Justin just posted but in a visual format (provided by Luke)
IMAG0949.jpg
Waitaminute, this one confuses me. It looks like Luke is measuring exactly 30mm across the laminations, while my own digital calipers showed a pretty exact 35mm:
35mm Width.jpg
Am I reading Luke's ruler and writing wrong or is this another discrepancy between the samples we got in January and the production shipment you got in March?

If that's the case then it throws all my dynamo tests out the water.

It also looks like Luke is suggesting it's a 10x6 wind that he's got, while the two units we received were 9x7 and 12x5

Hmmrrrrg -J
-methods

Justin- My little metric gauge is a pretty reliable tool. My stator is 30mm across. My magnets are 35mm across.

My windings are 10 pieces of 25awg wire (15awg equalivelant), and wrapped 6 times around each tooth.
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 5:11pm

Oh boy.... here we go again :roll:

Why do I always volunteer to be the first to stick my hand in the wringer !?!?

Ok - so now it looks like we really need to do some investigation. Different stator, different windings, different motor :? I questioned Lukes count of 6 turns when he reported it (since I was expecting 5) but now it makes sense. I totally missed the stator width... (EDIT: ************************************************** ************** ************************).

I am going to write Kenny - as I am sure some of you will too.
(EDIT: Sent Kenny an Email, waiting for response)

Every time I think we are starting to work out communications and commerce with China some shit like this crops up. Arg...

-methods
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 5:35pm

Kenny is clearly calling out 35mm on his specification sheet. This has been updated very recently as well.

UK Market: 25kph and 40kph versions
http://www.crystalyte.com/new%20motor%2 ... iption.htm

What I received was clearly marked with 40kph and 25kph... My invoice says HT3525 and HS3540 but look at this

2011 "5000 series"
http://www.crystalyte.com/xlyteupgrade.htm

But then confusing things you have statements like this:

(quoted from above)
"** For 5000 serier motor , we have different name for Europe Market "

which implies that the UK and US motors are the same ?!?

Kenny just got done simplifying the line to only have two versions... now it looks like we are back to all the different flavors?

dude... If Kenny says something like "We had to use the 30mm laminations to fit the hall sensors" I am just going to go out to my lab, bend over, and inject 100cc's of concentrated sulfuric acid into my ass. :?

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 6:11pm

I just opened up an HT3525 and found it to be marked with 9x7.... so at least the world has not turned completely upside down :)
Luke, can you please check for markings on yours?

My stator width is actually only 29.3mm (metal to metal, under the insulator).

I love that they actually use BAMBOO inside the motor.... does that make it even more GREEN?



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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 6:25pm

Ok... I am just going to forget this thread for a while and let you guys sort it out. :|
Look what just arrived in the mail... my "happy place".... :) :P :D

Methods LTC BMS V4.0

oh boy
oh boy
oh boy.....

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by Spacey » Mar 28 2011 6:33pm

Respect due Justin :D
justin_le wrote:
Spacey wrote:I mean there is no CA Cycle Analyst connector on the Sensorless Controller 40amp 72V, was hoping there was so I could maybe use it with my CA and lower the LVC cut off.
Hi Spacey, I just put a posting in a different thread showing the tap points for a CD-DP connector with the newer sensorless controllers:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=26336

The throttle over-ride wiring is easiest done by shorting out R36 and then soldering a diode with the anode connected to the pad labelled SLA and the cathode connected to the green CA wire.

I'll arrange to have Kenny prepare a few samples with this CA-DP mod straight from China to make sure they can get it correct, and then hopefully it will be available direct from Crystalyte this way in the future.

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by Hyena » Mar 28 2011 6:57pm

I started reading these posts and was about to say " awesome work guys, thanks for the measurement and specs" but now with these discrepancies... URRGGGGHH
methods wrote:If Kenny says something like "We had to use the 30mm laminations to fit the hall sensors" I am just going to go out to my lab, bend over, and inject 100cc's of concentrated sulfuric acid into my ass. :?
lol, I'm with ya, it'd hurt less than taking delivery of a shipment of dud motors!
I have a batch waiting on production, I wonder what I'll receive :|
I love that they actually use BAMBOO inside the motor....
Seriously ?!! hahaha those crazy Chinese, no wonder the pandas are endangered.
As long as the magnets aren't held on with rice glue :lol:
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by Andje » Mar 28 2011 7:25pm

i would much rather have had a 35mm stator with grooves and added halls myself :( if that is the case...
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 28 2011 7:37pm

Andje wrote:i would much rather have had a 35mm stator with grooves and added halls myself :( if that is the case...
way she goes...

It's not the halls causing the problem IMHO (though they do add a whisker of thickness for the wiring, it's not much).

Justin- Since you've got a 35mm stator example at your shop, can you have somebody measure the assembled thickness of the motor? From looking at my 30mm stator example, I don't think it would be possible to fit a 35mm stator and not have the windings rub on the case covers. As it is, the case covers have been machined on a lathe to have a little circular recess to allow the end-turns to clear the covers. Trying to get another 5mm of stator width in there would not fit in these case dimensions IMHO.

I'm guessing the version you've got with a 35mm stator also has a wider center section by around 5mm. I will get a pic of my center section next to the ruler up this evening (unless someone else who has one can post it up sooner.)
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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 7:44pm

liveforphysics wrote: I'm guessing the version you've got with a 35mm stator also has a wider center section by around 5mm.
Mine measures 49mm from machined surface to machined surface

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by justin_le » Mar 28 2011 8:16pm

liveforphysics wrote:
Andje wrote:i would much rather have had a 35mm stator with grooves and added halls myself :( if that is the case...
way she goes...
It's not the halls causing the problem IMHO (though they do add a whisker of thickness for the wiring, it's not much).
Justin- Since you've got a 35mm stator example at your shop, can you have somebody measure the assembled thickness of the motor?
Fortunately this one is also part of my photo collection I brought with me:
Rear Hub Width.jpg
Rear Hub Width.jpg (26.34 KiB) Viewed 5723 times

The side cover plates were also machined on the inside for added clearance:
Side Cover Weight.jpg
Side Cover Weight.jpg (28.78 KiB) Viewed 5722 times
-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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methods   10 GW

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by methods » Mar 28 2011 8:33pm

My measurement was with the covers off, of only the ring.

With the covers ON (for an apples to apples comparison to Justin's measurement) I get 56.7mm, which when you figure in the fact that Justin and I paid $10 for our calipers - is the SAME WIDTH.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 28 2011 8:51pm

Justin- The width of your flux-ring section appears to be about 8-9mm wider than mine. Yet, if I remember correctly, our magnet width is the same at 35mm right?

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