Noob help request - derestricting road legal kit.

Hello,

I have been following these forums for a few months now and reading all your stories and looking at your cool projects. I was going to jump straight into the deep end and try and build my own e-bike from scratch but then after reading some of the issues you lot have come up with in the past I decided it might be a better idea to buy a conversion kit to start with until i get used to it and then when it’s time for an upgrade I think I’ll try one myself.

So to cut a long story short i ended up buying a 36v 250w 26" kit from Alien Ocean Bikes with a Suzhou Bafang 8 FUN Brushless Hi Efficiency motor. After a little hitch with the battery I got the kit fully installed and it seems to be working fine apart from the throttle seems to stop making any difference once you take it past 50 or 60% so there seems to be some limit on it. In the instruction manual it stated that the controller is limited to 15mph to comply with UK law but can be "tinkered" with to allow 20+MPH although this can void the warranty obviously it does not tell me how to do this though.. I have looked all over the forums and can see no one else asking this question with this kit and the other questions along this line have been directed to a jumper with a gray wire on it. I don’t have a jumper with a grey wire on it that’s connected (I have only connected the motor, throttle and display) so I’m just wondering if any of you kind folks would happen to know the answer to my question.

If you need any further information then please feel free to ask. Oh and the link to the kit I bought is http://alienbikes.co.uk/page14.htm if you need to see it.

Thanks in advance for your help folks.

Fury.

A 250w kit does indeed produce about 15mph or so.
Tinkering would involve adding more voltage, but the lack of amps will make it anemic. It would have a faster top speed, but probably lack additional climbing power.

That is a very small controller, so it looks like it handles 15 amps or under; meaning that if it has any more power, there isn't much more to give even if you modified it.

Your solution would be a bigger controller.
However, bafang rates that motor at ~200watts. So a bigger motor is pushing it.

http://www.szbaf.com/proshow.aspx?id=74

I think adding more power would be certainly at your own risk.
Sorry if this news bursts your bubble. I think this kit doesn't have a hell of a lot of potential though.

Nonetheless, welcome to the forums.

Welcome to ES.

The chances are that the controller has a speed limiting link. Look for two single wires coming from the controller, probably the same colour, that are just connected together and go nowhere else. If you find them, then just unplugging them should de-restrict the controller and may get you some additional speed.

The Bafang can be pushed a fair bit in my experience. I'm running the rear wheel version of that motor at around 400 to 500 watts average, maybe 1kW or so peak, and it barely gets warm, so in my experience it wll take a lot more than it's rated power. It may be speed limited by the supply voltage, but from your description of the throttle response I strongly suspect that, like a lot of UK kits, it has a limiter fitted so may well have the potential to go a bit faster on the 36V battery you have.

Jeremy

Hello neptronix and thanks for the reply.

Like I say I am a noob but from my calculations I’m having trouble with the following.

neptronix said:

That is a very small controller, so it looks like it handles 15 amps or under; meaning that if it has any more power, there isn't much more to give even if you modified it.

Click to expand...

The controller is rated at 15amps and is running at 36v so should be 36vx15a=540w - therefore the controller should be capable of running up to 540w should it not? which is over double the rated wattage of the motor.

Your solution would be a bigger controller.
However, bafang rates that motor at ~200watts. So a bigger motor is pushing it.

http://www.szbaf.com/proshow.aspx?id=74

Click to expand...

My motor is not the one you link above but is infact http://www.szbaf.com/proshow.aspx?id=73 which is rated to 250w constant power output and I believe 600w peak although I’m not wanting to go up that high anyway. also i believe the motor is rated at 350rpm at 250w which on a 26inch wheel would equate to 207x350=72450 or 724.5m per minute which is 43.47kmph or 27.16mph (obviously this is without load) so to me at least it seems feasible that the motor would go faster than 15mph. Basically it hits 15mph using only 50% throttle and then after that the throttle does not have any further assistance so as far as I can see the motor must be speed limited rather than already running at its maximum?

Sorry if this news bursts your bubble. I think this kit doesn't have a hell of a lot of potential though.

Click to expand...

[/quote]

I agree that its a small kit but the average 250w kit without restrictions goes 20mph. the only reason mine does not is to make it street legal in the UK where it was sold, but I’m trying to find out how to remove the limiter.

I do thank you for your reply and I’m not trying to prove you wrong, as I’m certain you know a lot more about it than me, if just one of those people that likes to know why I’m wrong, and at the minute, my figures and other users experiences tell me that there is more in the kit than I’m getting out of it at present.

Thanks.

Fury

Jeremy Harris said:

Welcome to ES.

The chances are that the controller has a speed limiting link. Look for two single wires coming from the controller, probably the same colour, that are just connected together and go nowhere else. If you find them, then just unplugging them should de-restrict the controller and may get you some additional speed.

The Bafang can be pushed a fair bit in my experience. I'm running the rear wheel version of that motor at around 400 to 500 watts average, maybe 1kW or so peak, and it barely gets warm, so in my experience it wll take a lot more than it's rated power. It may be speed limited by the supply voltage, but from your description of the throttle response I strongly suspect that, like a lot of UK kits, it has a limiter fitted so may well have the potential to go a bit faster on the 36V battery you have.

Jeremy

Click to expand...

Hello Jeremy and thanks for the reply.

Thats exactly what i thought about the kit but the only thing i can find that is not listed in the wiring diagram for the controller is a 2 wire connector that is black wires and as far as i can see if is not connected to anything, its female connector with no male connector in it (could this be shorted inside?).

the controller is "potted" in silicone so no way of getting inside even if i wanted to (which i dont as i have no clue about the goings on inside these things). I guess my only way of finding out would be to cut the connector off the end of these wires and shield the ends to make sure they are left open?

Thanks

fury.

Those wires may possibly be a derestriction link. It may be that it works in the opposite sense to normal, and needs shorting to work. Before doing this I think it would be wise to check the voltage on those black wires with the bike pwoered up and report back.

If there isn't a derestriction link on your controller, then you could easily swap the controller for one that allows the current to be increased and also allows the full supply voltage to be passed to the motor without restriction. The budget option would be to buy a XieChang from Keywin Ge. This one would seem ideal if you want to retain the 15A continuous current limit (the 25A rating quoted isn't continuous for this controller, it's really set for about 15A): http://cgi.ebay.com/36V-350W-brushless-controller-E-bike-scooter-/300513739274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f803c20a

If you wanted more power, then email Keywn and ask him for a 36V version of this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/48V-600W-brushless-controller-E-bike-scooter-/300352534034?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ee67f612 or buy it as it stands and look at the threads here on re-programming the low voltage cut off so that it would work on 36V OK. This latter option gives you some expansion room for the future, as you could swap the battery pack for a 48V one and get a fair bit more speed.

You would lose some of the features that Alien have built in to their controller, but it would give you unrestricted performance and future tuning potential.

Don't worry about the motor, it will take a lot more power than it's rating, as a few of us here have already found out.

Jeremy

theRealFury said:

The controller is rated at 15amps and is running at 36v so should be 36vx15a=540w - therefore the controller should be capable of running up to 540w should it not? which is over double the rated wattage of the motor.

Click to expand...

Ah, but there is a big difference between peak wattage and nominal wattage. Your nominal wattage is going to be a hair over 250w in reality.
My 14a "250w" kit can pull a 508 watt peak.

So nominal wattage is more like what you're using when you're at top speed/cruising, that 500w number gets hit when you are accelerating or lugging it up a hill.

theRealFury said:

My motor is not the one you link above but is infact http://www.szbaf.com/proshow.aspx?id=73 which is rated to 250w constant power output and I believe 600w peak although I’m not wanting to go up that high anyway. also i believe the motor is rated at 350rpm at 250w which on a 26inch wheel would equate to 207x350=72450 or 724.5m per minute which is 43.47kmph or 27.16mph (obviously this is without load) so to me at least it seems feasible that the motor would go faster than 15mph. Basically it hits 15mph using only 50% throttle and then after that the throttle does not have any further assistance so as far as I can see the motor must be speed limited rather than already running at its maximum?

Click to expand...

27mph or even 20mph on 250w is very optimistic. If a "250w" motor is designed to go that speed, it will get there extremely slowly and be bad for hill climbing unless you weigh like 100lbs

Without load speed and wit hload speed are definitely two different things, for sure.

theRealFury said:

I agree that its a small kit but the average 250w kit without restrictions goes 20mph. the only reason mine does not is to make it street legal in the UK where it was sold, but I’m trying to find out how to remove the limiter.

I do thank you for your reply and I’m not trying to prove you wrong, as I’m certain you know a lot more about it than me, if just one of those people that likes to know why I’m wrong, and at the minute, my figures and other users experiences tell me that there is more in the kit than I’m getting out of it at present.

Click to expand...

I understand your skepticism, and perhaps kits made for the UK market have extremely long gear ratios, but i have my doubts.

I have never heard of a 250w kit that can do 20mph.. perhaps they are under-rating kits in the UK just so that they can be legally sold.

Either ways, you have a 15a controller which is bearable but measly. Like Jeremy said, there may be a hard speed limiter you can disconnect ( blue wire ), but my guess is that there is very little power to be discovered above 15mph.

If the motor can handle some abuse as Jeremy says it will, a bit more amps and more volts ( via a new controller ) would bring it to life for sure.

BTW, my 14a kit doesn't have a cutoff, and it just 'runs out of power' around 15mph as well.

Thanks jeremy, im at work at the minute so cant check the voltages right now but ill test them out when i get home and see whats going through the black wires. As for the controller, ill wait to pass judgement on upgrading that until i have reied everything to derestrict the one i have but ill keep those links in mind.

Thanks again.

Fury

neptronix said:

BTW, my 14a kit doesn't have a cutoff, and it just 'runs out of power' around 15mph as well.

Click to expand...

yea i noticed you were running with a 250w kit yourself so you are quite probably right in that it wont go much more than 15mph (especially with my fat 210lb a$$ on it). Ill still look into it even if just to satisfy my own neive curiosity lol. Ill post any findings here just so if anyone else has this kit there is an answer either way

Thanks to both you and Jeremy for the information and pointers.

btw, this would be a bit more of a sensible upgrade:

http://cgi.ebay.com/36V-350W-brushl...274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f803c20a

Mainly because it would be playing it safe. Geared motors have this tendency to turn those little nylon/plastic gears inside of them into peanut butter when too much power is put into them. Personally i'd go 20a/48v on a controller like that though, if you had the cash around to upgrade the battery while you're at it.

Oh, BTW i am about 210lbs too.

neptronix said:

27mph or even 20mph on 250w is very optimistic. If a "250w" motor is designed to go that speed, it will get there extremely slowly and be bad for hill climbing unless you weigh like 100lbs

Without load speed and wit hload speed are definitely two different things, for sure.

Click to expand...

neptronix said:

I understand your skepticism, and perhaps kits made for the UK market have extremely long gear ratios, but i have my doubts.

I have never heard of a 250w kit that can do 20mph.. perhaps they are under-rating kits in the UK just so that they can be legally sold.

Either ways, you have a 15a controller which is bearable but measly. Like Jeremy said, there may be a hard speed limiter you can disconnect ( blue wire ), but my guess is that there is very little power to be discovered above 15mph.

If the motor can handle some abuse as Jeremy says it will, a bit more amps and more volts ( via a new controller ) would bring it to life for sure.

BTW, my 14a kit doesn't have a cutoff, and it just 'runs out of power' around 15mph as well.

Click to expand...

Just to add a a bit of clarity, this motor is exactly the same (except for being the front wheel version) of the motor that Otto and I are running in our modded folders (see this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21945). I get 23 to 24mph on the flat from it, with excellent hill climbing power (I only ever stay in top gear and pedal gently). Otto reckons on 25mph on the flat for his. We're both running 10S LiPo, so 37V.

I'm running at 25A current limit, 65A phase current on a modded 6 FET Xiechang, Otto is running his on 30A current limit and 70A phase current on an unmodded Xiechang (I think he just bought one from that first link I gave, to the 6 FET 350W controller for $22).

At full power climbing hills then I'm chucking around 900 watts into my motor and it doesn't get barely warm. Otto has similarly reported that his doesn't get warm either, and he's running at around 1100 watts. I'd have absolutely no hesitation is saying this motor is very good at 500 watts plus, with a reasonable turn of speed and good hill climbing performance. This post describes the hill climbing performance and shows a test ride I took, complete with steep 200ft climb at around 15 mph: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21945#p320852

I agree that the rated current of controllers is often greater than the actual battery currrent. As I mentioned above, the controller that Otto and I are using is rated at 25A but as it's delivered is actually set for 15A.

Jeremy

neptronix said:

btw, this would be a bit more of a sensible upgrade:

http://cgi.ebay.com/36V-350W-brushl...274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f803c20a

Mainly because it would be playing it safe. Geared motors have this tendency to turn those little nylon/plastic gears inside of them into peanut butter when too much power is put into them. Personally i'd go 20a/48v on a controller like that though, if you had the cash around to upgrade the battery while you're at it.

Oh, BTW i am about 210lbs too.

Click to expand...

That's the link I've already given earlier in this thread, as it happens, and is the controller that Otto and I are already using with this motor to good effect..............

Jeremy

neptronix said:

btw, this would be a bit more of a sensible upgrade:

http://cgi.ebay.com/36V-350W-brushl...274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f803c20a

Mainly because it would be playing it safe. Geared motors have this tendency to turn those little nylon/plastic gears inside of them into peanut butter when too much power is put into them. Personally i'd go 20a/48v on a controller like that though, if you had the cash around to upgrade the battery while you're at it.

Oh, BTW i am about 210lbs too.

Click to expand...

Exact same controller I have on my (250W brushed motored Aprilia) which pulls almost 900W using 8S LiPo, and definately goes faster than 32kmh !

Oops, Jeremy beat me :: by this much ::

Jeremy Harris said:

Just to add a a bit of clarity, this motor is exactly the same (except for being the front wheel version) of the motor that Otto and I are running in our modded folders (see this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21945). I get 23 to 24mph on the flat from it, with excellent hill climbing power (I only ever stay in top gear and pedal gently). Otto reckons on 25mph on the flat for his. We're both running 10S LiPo, so 37V.
Jeremy

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, i felt certain there was a lot more from that motor than i was getting as it litterally flies up to 15 mph then hits a brick wall choose how much loving i give the throttle. Its probably just the measly controller supplied thats the bottleneck by the sound of it but ill see if i can get any more out of the controller as it is else ill probably buy the 22$ one from ebay as that really is a bargain buy if it works as good as you guys find.

gtadmin said:

Exact same controller I have on my (250W brushed motored Aprilia) which pulls almost 900W using 8S LiPo, and definately goes faster than 32kmh

Click to expand...

Hey gtadmin, thanks for the input, looks like that controller really is up to the job, bookmarked it. thanks

I'm sorry but the link was to a brushless, and mine is brushed. However, looks identical and the output on mine is 28A. Can't comment on the motor, but Jeremy has.

Jeremy Harris said:

That's the link I've already given earlier in this thread, as it happens, and is the controller that Otto and I are already using with this motor to good effect..............

Jeremy

Click to expand...

My bad, i saw the 48v controller and missed the other link.

That's crazy that this little motor can handle that kind of power. What a little sleeper. Geared motors seem to be real hit & miss in terms of which ones can handle more amps/v.

Yeah man, get that controller, that thing will fly, you'll be pumping 900-1000watts peak, 400-500 watts nominal and you get closer to that unloaded speed for sure.

neptronix said:

Jeremy Harris said:

That's the link I've already given earlier in this thread, as it happens, and is the controller that Otto and I are already using with this motor to good effect..............

Jeremy

Click to expand...

My bad, i saw the 48v controller and missed the other link.

That's crazy that this little motor can handle that kind of power. What a little sleeper. Geared motors seem to be real hit & miss in terms of which ones can handle more amps/v.

Yeah man, get that controller, that thing will fly, you'll be pumping 900-1000watts peak, 400-500 watts nominal and you get closer to that unloaded speed for sure.

Click to expand...

No worries, if it wasn't for personal experience I'd have been as cautious as you were. I don't know how long the gears in the motor will take 1kW plus, but I'm guessing that the sort of use I give this thing, where I don't really haul a lot of power for a long time, may well be OK for a fair while. The nylon motor gears are probably cheap enough to replace if they fail, I'd guess, as I suspect they are standard metric gears. I'd be perhaps a bit more concerned about cooking the windings with a lot of power, but so far mine not even getting warm, which bodes well.

Jeremy

you guys need to see this bafang motor being run at 72V and 30A for a total of 1500W peak. this is a testament to their ability to handle MUCH higher wattages than they’re rated for.




30mph / 72v / 30a / 1500w peak tire spinning video

[youtube]qrqv5wkHYmw[/youtube]

newb said:

you guys need to see this bafang motor being run at 72V and 30A for a total of 1500W peak. this is a testament to their ability to handle MUCH higher wattages than they’re rated for.

Click to expand...

Lol, that really is nice, bit too hot for my blood though. Id be quite happy to see 500w average and cruise along at ~20mph. at 30mph knowing my luck id get pulled by the cops for sure. also i wonder how long it will last at that wattage... im guessing id be needing a replacement in under 6 months haha.

cheers.

theRealFury said:

also i wonder how long it will last at that wattage... im guessing id be needing a replacement in under 6 months haha.

Click to expand...

he writes that that pic was from an inspection he did after running this setup for a yr without issue so they are quite robust.

if you are going to consider a new controller i recommend one from Lyen, he has several different fet counts to choose from in the forsale section. if you pruchase one from him you can have it setup to your specs or even better, have him add the ability for you to modify as you see fit. this gives you the ability to make changes as your needs/setup changes. i can't recommend him enough, i have made several purchases from him and he is A+++

that said, following Jeremy's lead is cheaper and he won't steer you wrong.

I run my mini motor on the infineon ebikekit controller and lyens 9 fet infineon controller and at 36v it's quite a bit peppier than the stock one. I have had no problems running it on 36v and it's pretty hot here in New Mexico. 8) 8)

Jeremy Harris said:

If there isn't a derestriction link on your controller, then you could easily swap the controller for one that allows the current to be increased and also allows the full supply voltage to be passed to the motor without restriction. The budget option would be to buy a XieChang from Keywin Ge. This one would seem ideal if you want to retain the 15A continuous current limit (the 25A rating quoted isn't continuous for this controller, it's really set for about 15A): http://cgi.ebay.com/36V-350W-brushless-controller-E-bike-scooter-/300513739274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f803c20a

Click to expand...

well after looking into the controller and speaking to the seller of the kit the controller is not derestrictable (as its potted in silicone so cant get inside to change stuff) so i will need a new controller to remove the UK restriction from my kit. I am looking at the controller you suggest above Jeremy but im a little cautious as the controller says it has a 5 wire motor sensor connection as well as the 3 main wires to the motor yet my hub moter only has the 3 main wire inputs. Will this controller work without connecting the 5 pin motor seonsor lead?

Been on a couple of rides (last one was 17 miles) and i definately have the ebike grin going up the hills now... much easier on the old legs but on the flat the grin quickly turns to a frown as it stops acellerating at 14mph with me on the saddle so i find myself peddling faster than the motor is going anyway and that is leading to me getting home after a 17 mile journey with over 50% power possibly even 75% left in battery so i definately need a bigger controller to make more use of the available power.

Thanks.

I have run Bafangs at 1300- 1500 peak watts and 1000 continuous without failure for over a year. The only reason I switched is the gear whine, which remained pretty constant (annoying) to my sensitive ears. They are pretty tough and the steel gear replacement can go to 1200-1500 continuous. I have an old Bafang that i did this to and got over 2 years with it. The newer Cellman motors seem to have even thicker gears, so it may bode well for their longevity. Just my 2pence.
otherDoc

I used to have a 260rpm 250w tongxin that happily got me to 22 mph. Poor hillclimbing on it's own but between my legs and it's power it would fly up 10% hills at 17mph. Admittedly a lot of my legs but still, I got to the top much faster and less tired than otherwise.

theRealFury said:

well after looking into the controller and speaking to the seller of the kit the controller is not derestrictable (as its potted in silicone so cant get inside to change stuff) so i will need a new controller to remove the UK restriction from my kit. I am looking at the controller you suggest above Jeremy but im a little cautious as the controller says it has a 5 wire motor sensor connection as well as the 3 main wires to the motor yet my hub moter only has the 3 main wire inputs. Will this controller work without connecting the 5 pin motor seonsor lead?

Click to expand...

You need the sensorless version of this controller, or use this one and add a sensorless module (I have a spare sensorless module for one of these, it's a tiny add-on board that fits inside the controller case). Ed Lyen here sells sensorless, uprated, versions of this same controller, but they are more expensive: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19587

You could email Keywin Ge (a.k.a e-crazyman, the ebay seller mentioned previously) and ask if he has a sensorless version available (I'm pretty sure he will have, as he supplies controllers to a fair few people directly, including Ed Lyen, I believe). The snag with contacting Keywin right now is that it's Chinese New Year tomorrow, with a ten day public holiday in China. This means you're not likely to get a response from any Chinese vendor for a couple of weeks.

Jeremy