The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:10 pm

50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.

The question remains of how many turns. Those end turns sure look like my 2 turn motors, and if so, plan on buying your controllers 2 at a time and watch the phase wire temps.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:22 pm

Image

Thanks for the Pron Andreym! :D :D :D Anyone have a Kleenex?

I guess you got serial number '1'. I can see how JRH might have thought that was the number of turns, when #4 and #5 showed up at the same time. :lol:

LFP wrote:The tooth/slot profile looks identical to a 9C.


Thanks for the technical analysis Luke, it really whets my appetite for this motor. I thought it look 9-c ish too, but I thought that about the HX so I don't have refined enough of an eye to offer up that conclusion. Funny, when Kenny tried to switch the 54xx order onto HX motors, I commented that if he made it 50mm I'd think about it... Let's get an arms race going on hub motors, next up a 60mm hubbie with just a single-speed on it... Oh damn I need another Kleenex.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby flathill » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:59 pm

John in CR wrote:50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.


$125 for motor/controller/andmore? Why aren't you sharing the wealth? Haha

How much do you think the QS3000W costs factory direct? Who makes this motor? Can we mod these ourselves (add disc brake adapter, spoke holes, and axel flats..is that all there is to it)? I think the 13" motors may be overkill for a street bicycle as the 10" is more stealthy and is about the max practical width so it looks perfect to me. I hate the looks of the magic pie and scooter wheels personally
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby The Mighty Volt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 pm

flathill wrote:
John in CR wrote:50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.


$125 for motor/controller/andmore? Why aren't you sharing the wealth? Haha

How much do you think the QS3000W costs factory direct? Who makes this motor? Can we mod these ourselves (add disc brake adapter, spoke holes, and axel flats..is that all there is to it)? I think the 13" motors may be overkill for a street bicycle as the 10" is more stealthy and is about the max practical width so it looks perfect to me. I hate the looks of the magic pie and scooter wheels personally


I got my 1500w rated motor for the same money. I probably will never use it in anger- what I am going to do is use it as a template to draw up and then weld-up a rear-end which is specifically designed for these moped-style motors.

Externally my own motor displays many similarities with those mentioned here, including increased width and decreased weight respective to the X5 series.

Exciting times. :D
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:32 pm

John in CR wrote:50mm lamination stack, but only the common diameter stator....Sorry, you guys are still playing catchup. Hubmonster is still the Sheriff, especially with the 36-4110's ventilated beast of a controller I just picked up. 8) It's great to see the over-priced/under-performing Xlytes put in their place with a commercial offering though, so 2nd place still has it's advantages. :twisted: FWIW, the 50mm stator does finally put you guys past my 40mm hubbies I've been using for 3 years, but they did only cost $125 plus shipping, including a controller, DC/DC converter, moto rim and spokes, which no one's been able to touch in price/performance ratio.

The question remains of how many turns. Those end turns sure look like my 2 turn motors, and if so, plan on buying your controllers 2 at a time and watch the phase wire temps.

John


im pretty sure everything else aside the hub motor was crap (even the hub had flaws) and that was before the inflation....
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:29 pm

gensem wrote:im pretty sure everything else aside the hub motor was crap (even the hub had flaws) and that was before the inflation....


I take it you mean the H35 motors. It wasn't the motor, since the stator of the motor of this thread may come out of the same factory. The magnet backing ring is obviously for a moto with the XL spoke holes. They just used a bike hubbie axle and covers. Good ole Kenny just ordered the wrong combination of parts to slap together and then pawns it off as some big new deal without even testing his parts combination.

I'd trust HAL and Accountant to do it right long before putting faith in Kenny.

Flathill,
There was a complete lack of interest here in scooter hubbies 2 and 3 years ago, and the factory I tracked down was the only one I could find that did spoke flanges instead of built on rims. I tried pushing them to do some with bike friendly axles and covers, but I couldn't swing the 10,000 unit minimum they wanted for the special order. They just couldn't fathom that anyone would want to put a hubbie they use for emotos on an ebike. I on the other hand can't fathom why anyone would put a relatively low power motor on a 300lb pig. :lol:

There's all kinds of motor bargains out there, and I'm just really waiting for better controllers to drive the higher Kv hubbies I already have and the biggie which is lower battery prices for the good stuff that is safe enough to go on something for sale.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:18 am

John the motor is 9,5 Kv, markobetti just posted that info.

that would do 665rpm/m at 70v
so
665 x 60 x "wheel diameter (2,1 meter)" /1000

a 26" wheel would reach 84km/h (unload) and almost 60km/h loaded???
is my calculations right?

doesnt seem right.
Last edited by gensem on Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
A decent 25mph bike will cost around $1000.
A decent 35mph bike will cost around $2000.
A $1000 35mph bike will get you killed.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby The Mighty Volt » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:00 am

gensem wrote:John the motor is 9,5 Kv, markobetti just posted that info.

that would do 665rpm/m at 70v
so
665 x 60 x "wheel diameter (2,1 meter)" /1000

a 26" wheel would reach 84km/h (unload) and almost 60km/h loaded? ???
is my calculation right?

doesnt seem right.


665RPM at 70v isn't especially high, that's X5304 territory. That's reassuring, it might not be, to use IceCube's expression, it might not be such an "amps whore" after all. :D
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:19 am

The Mighty Volt wrote:
gensem wrote:John the motor is 9,5 Kv, markobetti just posted that info.

that would do 665rpm/m at 70v
so
665 x 60 x "wheel diameter (2,1 meter)" /1000

a 26" wheel would reach 84km/h (unload) and almost 60km/h loaded? ???
is my calculation right?

doesnt seem right.


665RPM at 70v isn't especially high, that's X5304 territory. That's reassuring, it might not be, to use IceCube's expression, it might not be such an "amps whore" after all. :D


but the kv cant be right, it shoulda be somewhere in between the 03 an 04
I was expecting something toward 770rpm at 70v
A decent 25mph bike will cost around $1000.
A decent 35mph bike will cost around $2000.
A $1000 35mph bike will get you killed.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby teklektik » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:49 am

The Mighty Volt wrote:...it might not be such an "amps whore" after all. :D


This could open up use to a larger but slightly less 'Woo-Hoo!' demographic.
Really really wanting some detailed empirical measurements. (hint, hint: get building guys... ;-))
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:13 am

gensem wrote:John the motor is 9,5 Kv, markobetti just posted that info.

that would do 665rpm/m at 70v
so
665 x 60 x "wheel diameter (2,1 meter)" /1000

a 26" wheel would reach 84km/h (unload) and almost 60km/h loaded???
is my calculations right?

doesnt seem right.


That's good from the standpoint of being easier on controllers. I'd think on the flats it would get to a significantly higher% of no-load rpm. I prefer higher Kv motors, given their higher power potential for an otherwise identical motor due to the 100V limit for reasonably priced high power controllers.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:48 pm

I get your point John... Hal probably did that so the average joe can keep using 24s lipo and not blow the controller.
The 17kv one ll be fun to watch.
:)
A decent 25mph bike will cost around $1000.
A decent 35mph bike will cost around $2000.
A $1000 35mph bike will get you killed.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:22 pm

gensem wrote:I get your point John... Hal probably did that so the average joe can keep using 24s lipo and not blow the controller.
The 17kv one ll be fun to watch.
:)


It think it was to be able to use the big bike wheels. It should be a blast. The original X5's have only a 30mm stator, and your's is 50mm. :mrgreen:

Pray you don't run out of juice. It will be no fun to pedal.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby zombiess » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:53 am

I might have to go to 24" wheels now, really want to stay with 20" bicycle/16" moped wheels, especially since I just bought some nice Perelli ML75 tires. 2.5x16" front and 2.75x16" rear for my 20" wheels which should come out to just over 21" diameter. Just waiting to receive the motor so i can take it to my bike shop and watch the wheel builder squirm when he see's it.

That means an unloaded speed of 73.5 mph @ 125V. My unloaded 9C 2806 did 74mph tonight at 100% throttle and it goes at least 52 mph at that setting and 56mph at 105% throttle which is 70% of unloaded speed for the 100% setting (cycle analyst won't read halls over 100% throttle so I don't know wheel speed but I'd guess it's almost 90mph based on the sound alone). Accountant said this should be much higher, especially since I'm sticking with small wheels so if I get 90% of unloaded speed, I'll be quite happy with a 66mph top speed and crazy fast acceleration with the ability to climb any hill. Even if it only does 85% that's still 62mph which is still crazy fast. I think I'm going to call 60mph my limit for bicycle parts for now :D , but just for now :twisted: Got a fabricator interested in building some interesting projects.

Not going to be a cheap build since it needs custom length 12 gauge spokes at minimum and they will have to be special ordered. I'm hooked on 20" bicycle / 16" moped wheels with motors, the acceleration is just so nutty and everything runs a lot cooler since it get to speed so much faster and easier.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:52 am

Anyone know the hall and phase wiring combination for connecting to a lyen controller?
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:23 am

patrickza wrote:Anyone know the hall and phase wiring combination for connecting to a lyen controller?


No, but it would take me longer to get the spades out of the hall connector that it would take to find the right combination. Let me know if you want to know the easy way, and ignore suggestions of spreadsheet and 36 nonsense.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:30 am

John in CR wrote:Let me know if you want to know the easy way, and ignore suggestions of spreadsheet and 36 nonsense.


Yes please!
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:07 am

Be careful of the pedals in case you get a reverse, so you don't get whacked or hit your kickstand. Get the motor wheel off the ground, and remember to only try small throttle pulses when testing combos. Start with only the throttle, battery, controller, and motor. Add other stuff after you get it running. Yes, there are 36 possible combinations of the 3 halls, and 3 phases, but the are 6 good combos, 3 forward and 3 reverse. People typically run into trouble by swapping too many wires around at once. Every hall combo has 1 good phase combo, and every phase combo has 1 good hall combo. It could be forward or it could be reverse. Typically it's easier to swap phases, so leave the halls alone unless you get a reverse.

First, try all six combinations of phase wires. You will get a good smooth forward or a good smooth reverse as one of those combos. Only swap 2 at a time when changing them, because it's easier to be systematic. If the good combo is reverse, then you need to swap 2, any 2, and only 2 of the 3 hall wires (not red or black). After swapping the 2 halls, then try the other 5 phase combos (you already know the current one won't work) until you get the good smooth forward.


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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:46 am

Thanks that's a great simple explanation. Sounds like it should be a quick setup!

I've just got my frame back from being beefed up a little. I'm sure it wasn't too necessary, but with this much power and using regen I wanted a clamping dropout. I've also added 10mm of steel on each side for a total of 20mm dropouts. Total overkill, but I like it that way! Who knows, maybe at some point I'll push this motor to the limits:
Image
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby dbaker » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:49 am

Nice dropouts :!: Big thick spokes :D No disc rotor :?: How do you keep those motor wires safe from chafe at the axle :?:
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:05 am

That's just a test fit. Brake rotor etc still coming of course!
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby sn0wchyld » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:07 am

patrickza wrote:Thanks that's a great simple explanation. Sounds like it should be a quick setup!

I've just got my frame back from being beefed up a little. I'm sure it wasn't too necessary, but with this much power and using regen I wanted a clamping dropout. I've also added 10mm of steel on each side for a total of 20mm dropouts. Total overkill, but I like it that way! Who knows, maybe at some point I'll push this motor to the limits:
Image


I'd suggest pointing the phase wires downwards, that way any water that gets on 'em will flow away from the motor, not into it... looks good otherwise!!
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby Philistine » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:47 am

@Patrickza That frame mod you have made is not overkill at all, it is pure genius. I ran my HS35 in my Greyborg stock and spun the axle in the dropout twice - now my dopouts hang more open and loose than Borat's wife's nasty, which we know is looser than a tired dogs mouth or a wizards sleeve. If the CroMotor is half the monster we are told, you are a wise, wise man. I have thought of doing exactly what you have done, but without the attached piece (ie, just drilling through the end of the drop-out, and bolting through that). You have saved yourself future heartache, trust me as a man who has been there already...

EDIT: PS. so jealous of you with the CroMotor in the Gborg. I am waiting painfully on my 5403, the Greyborg frame is such an urban assault vehicle that you quickly take your motor to its limits. My HS35 is screaming and crying in pain (20S/50amps), I can taste and smell my windings most rides (too hot to hold a hand on), I am just waiting on a motor that can keep up with the frame, "CroTeam" are geniuses, I really think if most members got to see the quality of the greyborg frame in motion they would be amazed. With my Lyen 24 Fet, my limitation now is just motor related.....
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby teklektik » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:31 am

sn0wchyld wrote:I'd suggest pointing the phase wires downwards, that way any water that gets on 'em will flow away from the motor, not into it...

This is an example of the electrician's "drip loop". Position all equipment openings downward and leave some slack in the associated wiring so there is a loop lower than the opening. Water/moisture will flow to the low point of the loop and drip from there rather than entering the component. This policy was conceived for fixed equipment installations, but the underlying idea is often adaptable to (exposed) vehicle installations by angling the openings down and a bit rearward.

The best step in waterproofing is making water not want to enter in the first place....
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby zombiess » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:31 pm

Hubmonster official received today, time for the fun with the wheel smith now.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
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