The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:23 am

patrickza wrote:Anyone know the hall and phase wiring combination for connecting to a lyen controller?


No, but it would take me longer to get the spades out of the hall connector that it would take to find the right combination. Let me know if you want to know the easy way, and ignore suggestions of spreadsheet and 36 nonsense.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:30 am

John in CR wrote:Let me know if you want to know the easy way, and ignore suggestions of spreadsheet and 36 nonsense.


Yes please!
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Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:07 am

Be careful of the pedals in case you get a reverse, so you don't get whacked or hit your kickstand. Get the motor wheel off the ground, and remember to only try small throttle pulses when testing combos. Start with only the throttle, battery, controller, and motor. Add other stuff after you get it running. Yes, there are 36 possible combinations of the 3 halls, and 3 phases, but the are 6 good combos, 3 forward and 3 reverse. People typically run into trouble by swapping too many wires around at once. Every hall combo has 1 good phase combo, and every phase combo has 1 good hall combo. It could be forward or it could be reverse. Typically it's easier to swap phases, so leave the halls alone unless you get a reverse.

First, try all six combinations of phase wires. You will get a good smooth forward or a good smooth reverse as one of those combos. Only swap 2 at a time when changing them, because it's easier to be systematic. If the good combo is reverse, then you need to swap 2, any 2, and only 2 of the 3 hall wires (not red or black). After swapping the 2 halls, then try the other 5 phase combos (you already know the current one won't work) until you get the good smooth forward.


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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:46 am

Thanks that's a great simple explanation. Sounds like it should be a quick setup!

I've just got my frame back from being beefed up a little. I'm sure it wasn't too necessary, but with this much power and using regen I wanted a clamping dropout. I've also added 10mm of steel on each side for a total of 20mm dropouts. Total overkill, but I like it that way! Who knows, maybe at some point I'll push this motor to the limits:
Image
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby dbaker » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:49 am

Nice dropouts :!: Big thick spokes :D No disc rotor :?: How do you keep those motor wires safe from chafe at the axle :?:
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby patrickza » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:05 am

That's just a test fit. Brake rotor etc still coming of course!
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25872
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby sn0wchyld » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:07 am

patrickza wrote:Thanks that's a great simple explanation. Sounds like it should be a quick setup!

I've just got my frame back from being beefed up a little. I'm sure it wasn't too necessary, but with this much power and using regen I wanted a clamping dropout. I've also added 10mm of steel on each side for a total of 20mm dropouts. Total overkill, but I like it that way! Who knows, maybe at some point I'll push this motor to the limits:
Image


I'd suggest pointing the phase wires downwards, that way any water that gets on 'em will flow away from the motor, not into it... looks good otherwise!!
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby Philistine » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:47 am

@Patrickza That frame mod you have made is not overkill at all, it is pure genius. I ran my HS35 in my Greyborg stock and spun the axle in the dropout twice - now my dopouts hang more open and loose than Borat's wife's nasty, which we know is looser than a tired dogs mouth or a wizards sleeve. If the CroMotor is half the monster we are told, you are a wise, wise man. I have thought of doing exactly what you have done, but without the attached piece (ie, just drilling through the end of the drop-out, and bolting through that). You have saved yourself future heartache, trust me as a man who has been there already...

EDIT: PS. so jealous of you with the CroMotor in the Gborg. I am waiting painfully on my 5403, the Greyborg frame is such an urban assault vehicle that you quickly take your motor to its limits. My HS35 is screaming and crying in pain (20S/50amps), I can taste and smell my windings most rides (too hot to hold a hand on), I am just waiting on a motor that can keep up with the frame, "CroTeam" are geniuses, I really think if most members got to see the quality of the greyborg frame in motion they would be amazed. With my Lyen 24 Fet, my limitation now is just motor related.....
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby teklektik » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:31 am

sn0wchyld wrote:I'd suggest pointing the phase wires downwards, that way any water that gets on 'em will flow away from the motor, not into it...

This is an example of the electrician's "drip loop". Position all equipment openings downward and leave some slack in the associated wiring so there is a loop lower than the opening. Water/moisture will flow to the low point of the loop and drip from there rather than entering the component. This policy was conceived for fixed equipment installations, but the underlying idea is often adaptable to (exposed) vehicle installations by angling the openings down and a bit rearward.

The best step in waterproofing is making water not want to enter in the first place....
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby zombiess » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:31 pm

Hubmonster official received today, time for the fun with the wheel smith now.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:12 pm

zombiess wrote:Hubmonster official received today, time for the fun with the wheel smith now.


Hey now, I coined the term and these aren't Hubmonsters. I even decided to snap up the domain name.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby zombiess » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:58 am

After talking with the wheel builder who I very knowledgeable we decided he would drill holes for a 14 gauge spokes with 13 gauge butts since the holes are so large. Spoke itself is 14 gauge, but the part that mounts to the hub is 13 gauge. Spokes are 321 stainless. I was worried about them only being 14 gauge for strength reasons, but he re-assure me that with a 20" wheel and single cross I'll be fine the way he's building it (and he is aware I will be dumping 20-30kw at some point and targeting 100mph). He said I'd need to go to a bigger spoke for a bigger wheel. All threads will be deep in the nipple fore extra strength (he did a neat little demo for me showing me how important it is to have all threads in the nipple for strength, what a HUGE difference it makes). I also have my 2806 in a 20" wheel with 14 gauge spokes and it's been doing just fine too and it wasn't built nearly as well as what this guy does.

He asked how many watts I planned to dump into it so he's familiar with ebikes and has built some crazy bicycles himself. He was just a little shocked when I told him I was regularly going to be doing 7-8KW and eventually 20-30KW bursts when I get a high voltage controller. Need something that can handle at least 200V safely.

Total wheel build cost will be about $140 with decent double wall 28mm wide wheel and should be done next Monday or Tuesday. At least this way I don't have to worry about getting expensive custom spokes. Can't wait to get this thing back and try it out. I hope I can get close to 60mph out of it at 125V. Won't have to worry about over heating it at my current power levels, that's for sure.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:46 am

You guys and your wheels that need truing all the time crack me up. This motor needs motorcycle spokes, and no, 14ga isn't going to cut it.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby gensem » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:06 am

John isnt moto spokes made of UCP and not made using stainless steel?
I was thinking about using a chooperus like wheels and 12g steel sapim, any other options using steel?
A decent 25mph bike will cost around $1000.
A decent 35mph bike will cost around $2000.
A $1000 35mph bike will get you killed.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby zombiess » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:33 pm

John in CR wrote:You guys and your wheels that need truing all the time crack me up. This motor needs motorcycle spokes, and no, 14ga isn't going to cut it.


It's probably a lot easier for you to get stuff done in Costa Rica due to less litigation problems, some shops here just simple won't touch some things because they are terrified of being sued.

This shop also has as sign on the door that states they absolutely will do no work on any motorized vehicle... guess I'm the exception since the head guy there likes nutty stuff :)

Motorcycle spokes would be nice but I haven't found a shop in town to build one yet and no bike shop will touch a motorcycle spoke that I've talked to. I'll post up if I break any spokes or have any issues, but I trust the guy doing my build. He said there is more that goes into a wheel build than just the gauge of the spokes. My other 20" wheel with the 2806 is doing fine for about 200 miles so far, haven't even had to tighten the spokes up yet. Unfortunately my cheap ass when with a crap rim at the time without thinking and I regret it. The wheel is perfectly round but has a small high spot (I noticed due to using linear pulls on it) and the shop that built it said they did the best they could (not the current shop I'm using). I bet the guy who is doing my current build could fix it but I'm not gonna fix what isn't broken since it's a non issue for me.

How many people on here have posted about breaking crappy Chinese spokes? Hell, my first wheel I ordered from ebikes.ca came with a freaking flat spot and out of round and the package was in perfect condition. I have several of those Chinese spokes that came out of it and they are crap, no where near the 14 gauge spokes I'm using now which are much stronger.

How many others here are putting one of these motors in a 20" bicycle wheel or 16" moped wheel besides me?

He did mention that if I go to a larger wheel than a 20" I should probably go to at least an 8 gauge, the problem with this motor is the spoke holes are so large.

****EDIT****
Just found a shop, for 36 custom length 8 gauge spokes, wheel and building it would cost me $250-300 depending on the wheel. If I put another one of these motors in a larger wheel I'll probably go this route.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:23 pm

zombiess wrote:
John in CR wrote:You guys and your wheels that need truing all the time crack me up. This motor needs motorcycle spokes, and no, 14ga isn't going to cut it.


It's probably a lot easier for you to get stuff done in Costa Rica due to less litigation problems, some shops here just simple won't touch some things because they are terrified of being sued.

This shop also has as sign on the door that states they absolutely will do no work on any motorized vehicle... guess I'm the exception since the head guy there likes nutty stuff :)

Motorcycle spokes would be nice but I haven't found a shop in town to build one yet and no bike shop will touch a motorcycle spoke that I've talked to. I'll post up if I break any spokes or have any issues, but I trust the guy doing my build. He said there is more that goes into a wheel build than just the gauge of the spokes. My other 20" wheel with the 2806 is doing fine for about 200 miles so far, haven't even had to tighten the spokes up yet. Unfortunately my cheap ass when with a crap rim at the time without thinking and I regret it. The wheel is perfectly round but has a small high spot (I noticed due to using linear pulls on it) and the shop that built it said they did the best they could (not the current shop I'm using). I bet the guy who is doing my current build could fix it but I'm not gonna fix what isn't broken since it's a non issue for me.

How many people on here have posted about breaking crappy Chinese spokes? Hell, my first wheel I ordered from ebikes.ca came with a freaking flat spot and out of round and the package was in perfect condition. I have several of those Chinese spokes that came out of it and they are crap, no where near the 14 gauge spokes I'm using now which are much stronger.

How many others here are putting one of these motors in a 20" bicycle wheel or 16" moped wheel besides me?

He did mention that if I go to a larger wheel than a 20" I should probably go to at least an 8 gauge, the problem with this motor is the spoke holes are so large.

****EDIT****
Just found a shop, for 36 custom length 8 gauge spokes, wheel and building it would cost me $250-300 depending on the wheel. If I put another one of these motors in a larger wheel I'll probably go this route.

Do they have a website?
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby liveforphysics » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:11 pm

Keep in mind, if you run bigger spokes than your rim is capable of stretching/yielding, then you're going to always have a basket case wheel that needs regular attention and tuning etc.


So, if you've got a motorcycle rim that can handle a thousand pounds for each spoke without ripping the nipples out or taco'ing itself, then by all means run big fat spokes.

If you have a bicycle rim, and you run spokes that need a thousand pounds of tension each, but your rim can only support 100lbs of tension before the nipple rips out of it, then you're asking for a basket-case wheel to run any spokes larger than what your rim can allow to be properly tensioned.
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:20 pm

I think I will lace it with 12 gauge and a DX32 from jrh. Maybe not as solid as a motorcycle wheel, but for my needs it should be good.
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

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http://www.helicamguide.com
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby zombiess » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:04 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Keep in mind, if you run bigger spokes than your rim is capable of stretching/yielding, then you're going to always have a basket case wheel that needs regular attention and tuning etc.


So, if you've got a motorcycle rim that can handle a thousand pounds for each spoke without ripping the nipples out or taco'ing itself, then by all means run big fat spokes.

If you have a bicycle rim, and you run spokes that need a thousand pounds of tension each, but your rim can only support 100lbs of tension before the nipple rips out of it, then you're asking for a basket-case wheel to run any spokes larger than what your rim can allow to be properly tensioned.


Now that is something I didn't think about. I saw some 16" motorcycle wheels and I really didn't want to go to something that heavy. Makes me feel even better going the route I am. Probably best to not go much over a 12 gauge for a bicycle wheel unless it's a killer super duty wheel.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby John in CR » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:31 pm

If weight's such a great concern, then run a road bike spokes, rim, and tire. :mrgreen: You have a motor now, a high power one at that. I'm sure it's an emoto/emoped rotor, so install a proper wheel. The difference between a heavy duty bike wheel and a roadie wheel is the same as the difference between a moto wheel and a heavy duty bike wheel. Would you run a lawn tractor tire on your car if it would fit?
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:49 pm

With a moto wheel and moto tire, What are the different options or combinations in terms of diameter, width, ...etc. to achieve about 24 inch total??? I know nothing about moto rims.
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby Gow864 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:58 pm

fractal wrote:With a moto wheel and moto tire, What are the different options or combinations in terms of diameter, width, ...etc. to achieve about 24 inch total??? I know nothing about moto rims.


I'm pretty sure that a 19" moto rim comes out at about the same size as a 24" bicycle rim. That what i'm going to use, moto rim, big spokes.

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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:23 pm

fractal wrote:With a moto wheel and moto tire, What are the different options or combinations in terms of diameter, width, ...etc. to achieve about 24 inch total??? I know nothing about moto rims.


I was really suprised by the 9.5kv rating, I expected 13-14kv based on the italian guy's posted 84mph. I just talked with JRH, and bumped my rim on this build up from 17" (@22" OD) to 19" (24" OD), which only gives me about 8% more speed. The actual diameter of the wheel depends on the height, which depends on the Aspect and Series for that tire, but 24" is a good rough estimate. I hope my last-minute change doesn't delay my build too much, JRH has been really good about it.

I'm probably going to start with my Methods controller before moving up to the Kelly, here is the workup I used to compare 17"/19" performance at 100v:

24" 22" Diameter
75.36 69.08 Circumferance, inches
6.28 5.76 Circumferance, feet
840.76 917.20 revolutions/mile
9.50 9.50 KV of CroMotor
100.00 100.00 Voltage
950.00 950.00 RPM Unloaded
67.80 62.15 MPH unloaded
760.00 760.00 RPM Loaded (80%)
54.24 49.72 MPH loaded

John sent me a link with some 19" tires http://www.treatland.tv/SearchResults.asp?Search=19+tire and I went with the DeeStone 2.5". Once I have the build stabilized, and I can examine the tires first hand, I may go up to a bigger diameter - I have about 3.5" where I expect the sidewalls to land, too bad the aspect is not the widest part of the tire. OTOH, a lot of these tires are HEAVY. I had a poke about on Amazon looking at 19" tires, below is what I came up with, sorted by Aspect then series. When I moved onto Motorcycle Superstore, I didn't find any new options. I like the bridgestone spitfire and TW39 a lot...

Name-----------cost---------Aspect-------------series-------------weight-----------url
Dunlop K70 Front Tire - 3.50-19/-- 72.99 80 100 x http://www.amazon.com/Dunlop-K70-Front- ... 680&sr=1-6
Bridgestone Spitfire S11 Sport Touring Front Tire - 90/90-19 146897 58.88 90 90 9.8 http://www.amazon.com/Bridgestone-Spitf ... 3&sr=1-192
Bridgestone TW39 Trail Wing Dual Sport Front Tire - 90/100-19/-- 61.99 90 100 x http://www.amazon.com/Bridgestone-TW39- ... 5&sr=1-256
Shinko 244 Dual Sport Front - Rear Tire - 2.75-19/-- 25.99 100 60 x http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-244-Dual-S ... 20&sr=1-42
Shinko SR241 Front/Rear Dual Sport Tire - 2.75-19/-- 30.99 100 60 8.9 http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-SR241-Fron ... 02&sr=1-68
IRC GP-1 Dual Sport Rear Tire - 2.75-19/-- 47.99 100 60 x http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CD ... tive&psc=1
Dunlop MX71 Geomax Hard Terrain Front Tire - 70/100-19/-- 38.99 100 70 x http://www.amazon.com/Dunlop-MX71-Geoma ... 0&sr=1-109
Shinko SR241 Front/Rear Dual Sport Tire - 3.50-19/-- 47.99 100 80 2.1 http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-SR241-Fron ... 3&sr=1-147
Shinko 712 Front Tire - 100/90H-19/-- 44.99 100 90 13.6 http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-712-Front- ... 1&sr=1-126
Shinko SR733F Front Cruiser Tire - 100/90-19 57H/-- 53.99 100 90 13.6 http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-SR733F-Fro ... 3&sr=1-191
Kenda K671 Cruiser ST Front Tire - 100/90-19 046711905C1 57.76 100 90 x
Shinko SR241 Series Dual Sport Motorcycle Tires w/ Free B&F Heart Sticker - 3.50-19 / Front/Rear 60.93 100 100 x http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-SR241-Spor ... 7&sr=1-239
Shinko 705 Series Dual Sport Rear Tire - 110/80-19/-- 48.99 110 80 15.1 http://www.amazon.com/Shinko-Dual-Sport ... 3&sr=1-152
Kenda K657 Challenger Cruiser Motorcycle Tires - 110/90-19, Load/Speed: 68H - Front 64.36 110 90 36 http://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Challenger- ... B0056E3EL2
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby fractal » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:47 pm

excellent info!!! what gauge spokes will you have?
Norco A-line DH bike with :
«cromotor/hubzilla» from http://www.greyborg.com/
24s 3p Lipo (100v, 15ah)
Methods LVC/HVC cell level protection system http://www.methtek.com
24 fet infineon controller made by Lyen, heavily moded by Methods
8awg harness by Icecube57
17 inch moped rims with Michelin Gazelle tires by John Rob Holmes http://www.holmeshobbies.com
other stuff http://www.ebikes.ca

details
http://www.helicamguide.com
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Re: The Unofficial 'CroMotor' Owners Tech-Tips Thread

Postby oatnet » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:10 pm

fractal wrote:excellent info!!! what gauge spokes will you have?


He said he needed to back it down to 12ga for that diameter, but with my suspension it should be OK - 200mm travel forks and 229mm rear.

-JD
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153v DUNE BUGGY © 164v Vectrix E-Moto © 72v Norco A-line/x5403 © 60v Specialized Enduro Comp/BMC © 72v x5tracycle © 48v TF IO/BMC © 36v Kepler FrictionDrive © Spot-Welding a123 © Pelican Front Packs © Vectrix Battery Replacement © MORE !!


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