Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12kW

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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby Farfle » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:55 pm

Pick up one of these guys. Even tho it's only 80w the tips are so massive, they will flow 60/40 solder from 12v battery terminals into 2awg wire. Just search this guy, Sears won't let me view anything but their shoddy mobile site.

Cooper Tools 185-SP80L Marksman 80 Watt
The race bike:
24s5p 50c nano tech
Badass custom mofo outrunner 205x177mm 26kv
Peak power in : 420A at 87v
Peak power out: 34 Hp and 105ft/lb

Build to last...
"It will be assaulted by the elements, It will be ravaged by time and it will be destroyed by the user. BUT, if you Stick to the little rules: K.I.S.S., Overbuild everything, and test, review, revise, repeat. It will last"


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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:09 pm

drunkencat129 wrote:me and stevo did 150v controller with 4115 thay whould blow out under load and did it on a 32fet did same we changed fets to bigger batch fets and problem was gone it may have somthing to do with switching because only one whould blow ramdomly threw out the controller we wired the 12fet with the bigger batch and workes like a charm :P now we need to make an adapter to do an 18 fet


I had over 100 IRFB4115 FETs and I matched each banks resistance at 4V gate voltage. Some of the banks are using the Halogen free version because I had some of those as well and they all had really low resistance at 4V Vgs. Out of all my FETs I chose to match the banks with the same version (didn't mix halogen free and lead free versions) and also the ones which had the lowest resistance at 4 volts of Vgs in the hopes that if the gate drivers were a little on the weak side that this would aide in switching at the same time for equal current sharing. I'm also only running 126V max through the controller so I have head room. I thought I read that Stevo did 144V max voltage which is only leaving 6V before the absolute max voltage rating.

Wish me luck, changing blown FETs is a PITA. I hope what I'm doing will minimize problems. Like I said though, so far so good on my 18 FET 4115 controller for about at least 150 miles of use at 60-105A and it's FETs aren't matched.

It is good to hear that once you guys start using a large batch everything was working OK. What voltage did you guys run and did you match the FETs for their Miller Plateau voltage like I did? Also, what was the most watts you pulled out of these. Max battery amps @ voltage and max phase amps you tried and had it all live?
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby Doctorbass » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:48 am

zombiess wrote:
drunkencat129 wrote:me and stevo did 150v controller with 4115 thay whould blow out under load and did it on a 32fet did same we changed fets to bigger batch fets and problem was gone it may have somthing to do with switching because only one whould blow ramdomly threw out the controller we wired the 12fet with the bigger batch and workes like a charm :P now we need to make an adapter to do an 18 fet


I had over 100 IRFB4115 FETs and I matched each banks resistance at 4V gate voltage. Some of the banks are using the Halogen free version because I had some of those as well and they all had really low resistance at 4V Vgs. Out of all my FETs I chose to match the banks with the same version (didn't mix halogen free and lead free versions) and also the ones which had the lowest resistance at 4 volts of Vgs in the hopes that if the gate drivers were a little on the weak side that this would aide in switching at the same time for equal current sharing. I'm also only running 126V max through the controller so I have head room. I thought I read that Stevo did 144V max voltage which is only leaving 6V before the absolute max voltage rating.

Wish me luck, changing blown FETs is a PITA. I hope what I'm doing will minimize problems. Like I said though, so far so good on my 18 FET 4115 controller for about at least 150 miles of use at 60-105A and it's FETs aren't matched.

It is good to hear that once you guys start using a large batch everything was working OK. What voltage did you guys run and did you match the FETs for their Miller Plateau voltage like I did? Also, what was the most watts you pulled out of these. Max battery amps @ voltage and max phase amps you tried and had it all live?



Personally i never took the time to match them and play with the mosfet data. I could but maybe i'm lazy to do that from now... :lol:

What i know is that the controller behavior was way difefrent with lower turn mwinding motor than with higher turn winding!!!

If you want to see how tough is your controlelr build, use a low turn winding motor that compare with the 5303 or 5302 :twisted: If they dont fail, they are perfect!

I never had any problem with all my 18 fets controller using 4110 of 100V max rating at 24s LiMn and 250A phase current when i was using them with 5304 or 5305 or 2807 motor. I thoiught they was really tough too!.. until i connected thjem with the 5303 and the 5302.. Ouch... the high phase current make them suffer at low rpm!

That's the ultimate test, low turn winding motor will show their limit !

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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:40 am

Finally got an iron that is hot enough to do the work I need. 400W/150W. Works great. Project is still a total pain, but if I build another one I know a bunch of short cuts now, such as install the copper AFTER soldering in the FETs. Would have saved me many many hours. All that copper and solder just love to act as a giant heat sink preventing the solder from melting the way I want it to without lots of time spent trying to get it hot. Not to mention fighting the occasional solder bridge.

No pic update yet, but 6 gauge power wires are installed. FET heat sink with high side is now installed with all three banks connected by the buss bar tabs using 8 gauge wire and then connecting to the far side of the board as well as the power feed side (these boards have two holes for feeding B+ power, one on each end and mine are now shorted together through beefed up traced and 8 gauge wire connecting the tabs.

Will hopefully test the controller out tomorrow or Monday to see if it actually works or if I made a goof somewhere and need to find it. No shorts anywhere, checked multiple times due to causing several accidental solder bridges because I'm so use to working with low power soldering irons. As long as I didn't fry any semi conductors from heat, I'm just a few hours of work away from testing it to see if it spins a motor before finally installing it into the case.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby auraslip » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:14 pm

Sounds awesome. You're doing a lot of really cool things lately!
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:45 am

auraslip wrote:Sounds awesome. You're doing a lot of really cool things lately!


I have a lot more to come, I'm just getting started. It's just about lack of time at the moment. I'm busy as all heck because I've had a few things come up that have caused delays like everyone does in their life, but it's nothing major. I'm hoping to be back on track by next weekend at the latest.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby Arlo1 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:51 am

Cool man.
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:06 am

Arlo1 wrote:Cool man.


I just wanna see if this actually works after all the hours and hours of work I've put into this thing. I did learn a ton about building a controller though. Such as it's probably wisest to add the copper to the PCB traces last if you don't want it to take forever soldering stuff because the entire controller has become one gigantic heat sink! Even my 400W iron struggles now, but it's also really awesome to see how well the heat sinking works. I was worried I was dumping a lot of heat into the legs of a FET I was struggling with that had a solder bridge (giant soldering irons and small parts = not so fun) and was using the 400W setting and probably had it on there for a good 2 mins when I realized what I was doing and thought "Crap!", that's too hot for the FET. Flipped over the board. FET case was just barely touchable (not even close to damage levels, especially with my overly sensitive girly finger tips). Alum heat sink was a bit warm. Every thing was cool again in less than a minute, except the soldering iron tip which still was able to melt solder for a good 3 mins after I let off the trigger :D

As long as I didn't goof anything up, I think this controller is going to be a serious monster at 125V. Already have the 6 gauge power wires installed and 8 gauge phase wires. FET tabs are connected to phases through the 8 gauge wires. High side has 8 gauge connected to all tabs then attached again on the other side of the board. Other side is tied directly to the 6 gauge power B+
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:44 am

Had some time to make more progress. The board is done, just need to solder on a few connectors and then test this bad boy out and see if it actually works and spins a motor before I assemble it into it's case and mount it to a bike for real testing.

Bottom shot of the completed traces. I was able to just barely squeeze in two 1uF 250 VAC low ESR polypropylene caps at each end on the bottom side. Since I couldn't get them installed the middle I decided to use the left over 0.1uF caps and parallel two of them on the bottom to go along with the two on the top side. In all this board has 4uF of low ESR polypropylene caps to hopefully help absorb any spikes. It has 3,900uF of low ESR 160V aluminum electrolytic capacitors.
Image

Top view showing the buss wires and 6 gauge power feeds
Image

All connectors soldered in and run through strain reliefs
http://dynamic.opticalanarchy.com:8080/ ... -top05.jpg

Just about done, just need to add on the spades for the phases and figure out how to connect the power to it. Got the one phase wire installed with a spade, just need to change the color of the heat shrink so I know exactly what it is. Accidentally installed a red one... oops.
Image

I'm hoping to test it out tomorrow, still need to do the regen mod to allow it to work on high voltage, but that will only take a few mins. Everything just barely fits in the case. That 6 gauge wire has some really thick insulating on it and just barely fits because of two electrolytic capacitors at the end.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:15 pm

Got to test out the controller today but only no load. Worked great at 46V running the bike at no load. Tested out 3 speed switch, cycle analyst, throttle etc. All seems to work great. Time to put it into all back into the case and try it out on the bike.

Only bad news is I put a scope on the gate of an FET and did some measurements to see the driver performance... really poor. See my other tech thread for details on that
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby Farfle » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:23 pm

Nice ! Glad to hear you got it running!
The race bike:
24s5p 50c nano tech
Badass custom mofo outrunner 205x177mm 26kv
Peak power in : 420A at 87v
Peak power out: 34 Hp and 105ft/lb

Build to last...
"It will be assaulted by the elements, It will be ravaged by time and it will be destroyed by the user. BUT, if you Stick to the little rules: K.I.S.S., Overbuild everything, and test, review, revise, repeat. It will last"


Team Farfle blog!! http://www.farfleselectrics.blogspot.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:36 pm

zombiess wrote:
Only bad news is I put a scope on the gate of an FET and did some measurements to see the driver performance... really poor. See my other tech thread for details on that

Dude when you get as far as I have been you will realize why its good to stop with the china controllers 100% and move on to something better. We have a few DIY controllers on the forum and we are getting other options that vary from fro board to sevcon to kelly. I just can justify spending the time to build a 24 or 36 fet china controller for 8-12 hours anymore when I can build the entire thing from scratch with lebowskies chip.
Dont get me wrong dude you did some great work here and for a hub motor it should rip but im not suprised the driver performance is lame! What thread is it on? I cant find it :(
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:54 am

Arlo1 wrote:
zombiess wrote:
Only bad news is I put a scope on the gate of an FET and did some measurements to see the driver performance... really poor. See my other tech thread for details on that

Dude when you get as far as I have been you will realize why its good to stop with the china controllers 100% and move on to something better. We have a few DIY controllers on the forum and we are getting other options that vary from fro board to sevcon to kelly. I just can justify spending the time to build a 24 or 36 fet china controller for 8-12 hours anymore when I can build the entire thing from scratch with lebowskies chip.
Dont get me wrong dude you did some great work here and for a hub motor it should rip but im not suprised the driver performance is lame! What thread is it on? I cant find it :(


It is what it is. Not going to stop me from using it after I figure out if I can improve it with some simple tweaks. Lots of people using these controllers with crappy drivers to power their high powered bikes and I'm no exception. I would like better, but this is what I got for the moment. Surprises me no one has posted this information before. Was pretty easy to gather, took me all of about 45 mins of playing around with a scope, battery, ebike and camera. I'll see if I can update this thread tomorrow after I experiment some more with different resistor values or higher voltage to allow more current to the on board SMPS and check for ripple on the 15V regulator. I have a feeling it's struggling to charge the caps on the gate drivers with my low voltage and high 510 ohm R115 resistor.

I have one of Lebowskis chips, now I need the time to build it and my power stage stuff, but before I do those projects I'm working on my throttle interface so I can hopefully have a more controlled high powered ebike as soon as I wrap this project up and install it in it's case.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby hardym » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:14 pm

Zombiess,
Great work! This huge controller build is quite entertaining.... I found myself laughing out loud when in the photo shoot on page 1 of this thread, the assembled 36 fet controller is resting peacefully on a pamphlet titled:

"Helping You Take Control of Your Money and Credit" :D

I'm so there.

Mark.
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:23 pm

Just got back from the first test ride, controller works good in the two miles I rode it and tried to abuse it and I couldn't even get the case to not be cold to the touch. Set it for 70A battery 200A phase on a partially charged pack that was at 115 Volts. I'm going to need a new swing arm to really turn it up beyond where I ride it now. All I need to do is the R12 mod to allow regen to work at high voltage and it should be a done project.

Hard part was mounting it. If I installed it where the 18 FET goes there would only b 1-2mm clearance between the crank arms because the case is so wide. I ended up installing it on an old seat post rack since I'm just testing it out to make sure it's OK. I'm going to put the 18 FET controller back on this bike since it's all it needs unless I decide to go hill climbing.

Building one of these from the board up was a great learning experience, but quite time consuming. next one I build should go quite a bit faster now that I know a bunch of tricks. I guess this project wasn't too bad, took me 24 days from start to final test and I only worked on it a little at a time + waiting for parts, not working on it for several days at a time. I'm guessing I'm into this controller for about 40 hours of labor mainly because of the copper buss bars and not having a hot enough soldering iron. Once I got the right iron everything went faster.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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Re: Modding my EB236 150V controller the same as my EB318 12

Postby zombiess » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:47 am

I already posted this info in another thread, but I wanted to complete this one for anyone searching. Some hard core testing I did
-------------------------------------------------
Just got back from a 16 mile test ride, controller settings were 100A battery (the max the software went to) and 180A phase, 110% throttle in position 3. Battery setup is 30S3P (added on 5 additional 5AH 20C in parallel with the 25C Nano Techs). On the last 6 miles of my ride I was basically riding it like I stole it and even managed to get the motor case warm enough that I could only hold my wussy hands on it for a few seconds after it sat for 5 minutes for the first time WOOT! Not hot enough to reduce any performance though so probably not much over 100C if even that, I need to install a temp probe in the windings eventually, just need a type K with a long lead.

My CA is not calibrated to this shunt, it's setup for my 0.5 mOhm shunt in my 18 FET, I'm guessing these 5 shunts in parallel put it some where around 0.7 mOhms, but it's just a guess based on previously dealing with several of these shunts (3 in parallel ended up being 1.25mOhm).

Anyways the real point to this post is I managed to pop my 120A fuse from current draw on the 110% throttle setting and the controller was just slightly above ambient temp after lots of hard acceleration due to varying my speed a lot on the last 6 miles. Good news is I always carry a spare, but it was only an 80A and it popped about 1/4 mile from home after I went 57 MPH with the battery sitting at 115V at rest and was messing around doing acceleration pulls. Block time is still set at 1.0 sec. I need to figure out the shunt value on this controller and start using XPD with it.

Pretty awesome the controller is doing just fine and I melted a 120A fuse just from pure power. I'm guessing that means I was pulling about 150A for a while for the fuse to get hot enough to pop. I have some 150A fuses I can install which should also help. Was a really fun ride. Turning up the battery amps really gives the bike awesome acceleration, much more than my 18 FET was giving it but it was much more controllable and smoother on this controller.

Looks like this 36 FET I built is going to be good for at least 150A with no sweat. Even tried climbing some lower grade hills (maybe 4-5% at 40% throttle for about 2 miles no stop) and the controller didn't get warm.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
Greyborg USA/Canada Dealer, Frame kits + motor in stock now http://www.greyborgusa.com
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