Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

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Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:53 am

Hello there,

I have this mini conhismotor hub:
http://www.conhismotor.com/prodpic/big-2010-11-6_8-30-52.JPG
http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=76

And I'm using it with Lyen high voltage racing controller to make sure I can reach 30 mph on 16" wheel:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18214

The problem is that my motor is going reverse.

I've tried these setup as recommended:
Controller: Motor:
Hall:
Y G
G Y
B B

Phase:
Y G
G Y
B B

and

Hall:
Y B
G G
B Y

Phase:
Y B
G G
B Y

But it still going reverse.

Any idea how I can fix that?

Thanks a lot
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby Scottyf » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:51 am

Try changing a one of the phase wires round. The same goes for the halls.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:09 pm

Isn't that dangerous? I can change everything randomly without problem?
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby ZOMGVTEK » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:31 pm

Keep the throttle minimal and don't run it with a load. If you are riding around at WOT with the wrong phase/hall combo, it can be an issue.

It's normally fine. Just don't use the bike until the wheel is spinning smooth, and the freewheel power consumption is low.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby NeilP » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:51 pm

In total there are 36 different combinations,
There should be three combinations that make the motor go forward and three that make the motor go backwards.

You can either be very logical and try each in order, so start with the halls in one order, and try each of the six possible phase wire combinations.
Swap the halls to the next arrangement, and try all the phases again.

Each time you turn the throttle, with no load on wheel ..off the ground...keep close eye on current flow ( on CA or with ammeter) ..or at the very least a low value fuse in line with the battery. I mean real low..like 2 amps or so, so if you were to open the throttle wide and you had it wired wrong, the fuse will blow.


As Scotty says, if you already have a good arrangement, but it is going in reverse, it is possible to just swap a pair of each and it should go the other way...but I have never had much success with the random sawpping method.

if yo get it right, just swapping a pair is obviously quicker...but I prefer the longer way of checking all combos myself
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby John in CR » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:25 pm

As long as the reverse is nice and smooth sounding simply change 2 any 2 and only 2 phase (or hall) wires. Then find the correct combination of the 5 remaining hall wires (or phase if you swapped just 2 halls above). Use only small pulses of throttle when trying the different combos, and no it's not dangerous with only small pulses. Personally I use alligator clip wires on the phase wires till I find the right combo and just swap 2 of the halls. That way I know only low current is passing. When trying new combos I only swap 2 at a time, which is easier and easier to be orderly.

This is the easiest method and guaranteed to work, so easy that I've done it with non-color coded wires and could do it blindfolded on a dare. Figuring out wiring combos is consistently the most common thing that most ES members over-complicate.

On many motors some combos can spin the motor, but aren't correct. IME these "false positives" are always in the opposite direction of the correct combo for a given hall or phase combo, and IME they sound rough compared to the correct combo. False positives will also have high current, so if you have a multimeter that can measure current it's always good to check no-load current once you think you have the right combo until you have more experience and can definitely tell the difference by the sound. If you can't measure current, another telltale sign is low torque, so if you try the bike and acceleration is very poor, then stop immediately so you don't damage the motor and go back to the first paragraph above. Quite a few people have ridden their bikes that way and burned up motors.

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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby The Riddler » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:03 pm

Hi cwah
Try this:
Wiring Pssible Combination Worksheet.xls
(22.5 KiB) Downloaded 42 times


Which voltage is planned? 132V ? :twisted:
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:54 pm

So basically, I get the excel sheet and try the 36 combinations with an eye on:
- the amps
- the torque (how much the wheel spin with little throttle)

And that should work?

ps: not sure yet what voltage is planned, but probably between 74 and 150V. I'm not looking for high speed, but for decent speed high voltage is necessary on small wheel :lol:
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby DAND214 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:51 pm

Might be a dumb question, but.
Did you try color to color? no mixed colors.

Swap 2 colors first and see what happens.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby John in CR » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:18 pm

cwah wrote:So basically, I get the excel sheet and try the 36 combinations ...


Only if you want to do it the hardest way possible and end up with all 3 correct solutions to a quite simple logic question. From a valid reverse I can actually get a valid forward in 2 tries, but explaining it is more difficult than just the 1 in 5 that I outlined above, but by all means go ahead and try all 36 that's a lot more than just 7 times the work since you need to write down results.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby NeilP » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:32 am

John inCR wrote:Then find the correct combination of the 5 remaining hall wires


John, I am sure ( well hope) we all realise what you mean, but just so the OP does too, your quote above should read
Then find the correct combination of 3 from 5 remaining hall wires


You only swap three of the hall wires ( usually yellow green, blue) , the two power wires, (usually red and black) must NEVER be swapped

John, I have just had a thought on the three possible." correct" combos and dot not remember seeing it discussed before. I won't hijack this thread with it, but will wait till I am off the iPhone and on PC.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:03 am

Thanks guys. I didn't try colour to colour but I think I'm going to do it the hardest way with 36 combination.

At least I'm sure iI'll find the right one.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:48 am

Guys, I tried the 36 combinaisons. I ended up with 3 working set:
Set 1:
Hall sensor:
Y-Y
G-G
B-B

Phase:
Y-B
G-Y
B-G


Set 2:
Hall sensor:
Y-G
G-B
B-Y

Phase:
Y-Y
G-G
B-B



Set 3:
Hall sensor:
Y-B
G-Y
B-G

Phase:
Y-G
G-B
B-Y


For all of them, it's going forward with a max amps around 1.55A with no load. Noise seem identical and going the same speed (didn't use a speedometer to judge however).

Are they all good or shall I just limit to 1 set?
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby NeilP » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:09 am

If you look at all the combos, you will see they are all 'the same'

what I mean by that is that they follow the same order...YGB or BYG or GBY all the same..think of them written on the edge of a circle.

So it makes no difference which combo you use.

To help a little with the understanding of how John was trying to say to do it and jsut swap two pairs if the motor went in the wrong direction, try this:

Now you have your sheet with all working combos..forward and reverse compare them.

Look at one combination of forward..any one and look at the first colour pair on your list for the Halls.

Now find a reverse combination, with the same first colour Hall pair, as the pair selected in the step above.

Now if you compare the remaining wiring pattern on the phase and halls between forward and reverse, you can see how the 'swap two pairs method' works
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:29 am

Not sure to completely get it. How are they the same? I don't figure out yet how they would be written on the edge of a circle?

But anyway, if they are all correct, that's perfect for me. Took me the whole morning to find it out lol
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby NeilP » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:29 pm

Like this :

untitled.JPG
untitled.JPG (10.66 KiB) Viewed 624 times



Which ever point you start on the circle and go around, the order the letters come out is the same order as you have in your motor setup

YGBYGBYGBYGBYGBYG

Where ever you start the sequence is the same, it is still in the same order, just starting from a different place
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:14 pm

yes, I tried to represent that but I'm just not sure weather this YGB circle apply for the hall sensor, the phase or for the combination of them?
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby NeilP » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:29 am

Well any of them, it is just to show that it is the order they come in that matters, not where you start from
Your forward sequence is
YGBYGBY

Swap any two and you get the reverse sequence

YGBYGB etc


All irrelevant anyway, what I am going on about is to going to help you get this motor running any better, it was just to try and get the concept over that all of the working sequences have to be and are in the same order.

I had been wondering if there was a 'more correct' sequence, and am still not sure.

What I was thinking of is far to deep and involved and probably not worthy of consideration. I have started typing out a draft thread, but i can't get the logic and thinking straight in my own mind, let alone write it up in a form that I can explain
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby cwah » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:24 pm

That's fine. As long as it's working that's perfect for me.

Don't have too many questions, have so many problem to sort with my bike for now I'm just trying to get thing right... for now :)

will probably go back again later and try to get an in depth understanding once my bike is finished

Thanks again :)
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby crusoe » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:45 pm

by The Riddler » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:03 pm

Hi cwah
Try this:
Wiring Pssible Combination Worksheet.xls
(22.5 KiB) Downloaded 18 times


Which voltage is planned? 132V ?


Can someone explain how to use that combination worksheet. Do I work across the rows? I'm a bit confused :P I'm having the same problem with my lyen controller and c-lite HS.

On a side note, when we matched colour to colour, it went in reverse but sounded rough. We switched around colours and bunch of times with no luck, so went back to the matched colour to colour combination (yy gg bb etc) and now nothing happens? Is this normal or did we bork something?
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby Philistine » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:16 pm

I'm a bit confused I'm having the same problem with my lyen controller and c-lite HS.


The combo for a Lyen to any Crystallite motor is: 1) the green phase wires match, and yellow and blue phase wires are swapped, and 2) on the halls, the yellow hall wires match, and the green and blue wires are swapped. That is the case for all Crystallite motors to Lyen controllers, so if you are having problems with that combo it is something else, not the wire combos.
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby crusoe » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:13 am

Tried out that combo and nothing. So I fear we blew something in testing the connections :(
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby NeilP » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:22 am

crusoe wrote:Can someone explain how to use that combination worksheet. Do I work across the rows? I'm a bit confused :P I'm having the same problem with my lyen controller and c-lite HS.


You can work anyway you want, but downt eh rows is easier, as you are swapping the phase wires which are bigger and tought more often, that the thin and fragile hall wires


crusoe wrote:On a side note, when we matched colour to colour, it went in reverse but sounded rough. We switched around colours and bunch of times with no luck, so went back to the matched colour to colour combination (yy gg bb etc) and now nothing happens? Is this normal or did we bork something?


Does not sound good.

When you were randomly swappin gwires and trying it first time, did you have any fuse between controler and battery pack..something really low like 5 amp. If not then you should have.

When swapping wires like this and you get a combo wrong, it is very easy for very hifh current to flow through controller and blow something if wired wrong.

A lyen tester ( see New for sale threads), is the way to go to check out the controller and motor
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“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”
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Re: Conhismotor going reverse with lyen controller

Postby crusoe » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:11 am

Turns out we blew the first set of three fets in the controller. We swapped them out and it ran perfect, for about 15 min. We took a break to do temp readings and I tried to start back up again but it just quit and didn't move. We're thinking it's blown mosfets again, but why the heck would they keep blowing?
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