Unusual hall problem,due to controller KU63 :workaround

[dnmun]

do not open the motor. first we have to figure out why your 5V supply is oscillating. do like AW asked and measure the 5V on the throttle to see if it does the same thing. don't check resistance while there is voltage in the controller.

[gwhy!]

600k ohm between red and black is high enough I would have thought, but I would not expect to have the same resistance on all the wires and to the motor cover .

do not open the motor. first we have to figure out why your 5V supply is oscillating. do like AW asked and measure the 5V on the throttle to see if it does the same thing. don't check resistance while there is voltage in the controller.

I second this , is the 5v steady on the throttle without the hall sensors plugged in or unplugged or both ?. if the 5v is steady on the throttle 5v line with/without the halls plugged in then the chances are you have a very high resistance somewhere between controller and the halls 5v line ( connector/ fractured wire , or dry joint ) . if the throttle 5v line drops when the hall sensors are plugged in then you defo have something funky going on with the hall sensors/wiring ( short )

[fechter]

It does sound like the 5v supply from the contoller is getting overloaded and dropping out.
It would be normal with most controllers to see 5v on the signal lines with the halls disconnected. There are typically pull up resistors to the 5v supply on each input.

If the 5v still drops out even with the hall sensors disconnected, there is something wrong with the controller.

Most controllers use a 78L05 linear regulator for the 5v supply. If overloaded, they can overheat and shut off. After some cooling, it can come back on. It could be just a bad regulator chip, but usually there is something else that's drawing too much power.

It would be ideal if you could measure the current consumption of the controller when powered up, but not throttled. Likewise, it would be good to measure the current draw of just the hall sensors. This usually involves disconnecting only the red wire and trying to place an ammeter in series with it. Don't try to measure any voltage souces with the meter in current mode or something will blow up (meter will be like a short).

The hall sensors should draw something like 10mA or less (not exactly sure).
The whole controller on standby should draw less than 100mA.

[beppe000]

It does sound like the 5v supply from the contoller is getting overloaded and dropping out.

Most controllers use a 78L05 linear regulator for the 5v supply. If overloaded, they can overheat and shut off. After some cooling, it can come back on. It could be just a bad regulator chip, but usually there is something else that's drawing too much power.

The hall sensors should draw something like 10mA or less (not exactly sure).
The whole controller on standby should draw less than 100mA.

I couldnt measure the hall sensor consumption, i'm not sure why, but maibe is too small for my multimeter. Anyway i disconnected everithing in order to measure the consumption from battery (i have no cycle analist, just a multimeter), and.... seems that my sensor are not broken!
I tried to connect just hall sensor, phases and throttle, and seem that my 5v supply is now stable. I still have to test it, but i couldnt reproduce my issue anymore.
Next i'll try to connect PAS,Brakes etc.. to find out which component does overload my 5v power supply; i'll also check every connector, looking for some short.
I'll let you know the results of this test and the power consumption data.

[dnmun]

why do all that? why not just focus on testing the halls sensors to see if they work? you will have no way to measure the current consumption of the hall sensors anyway.

what you need to do is see if the hall sensor voltage toggles on and off as you rotate the wheel backwards. this has not been done yet. that is what we need to know. measure the voltage between the black and each of the BGY hall sensor wires by putting the voltmeter probes into the back end of the 5 pin plug while it is plugged into the motor, and the controller powered up.

[amberwolf]

I think he has already tested the actual sensor toggling as ok, except for the interference of whatever is causing the power fluctuation:

So i tested the sensor as described in this forum (led circuit) and found out something strange: hall sensor seems to work (do turn on and off rotating the wheel backward or using the engine) but when they are in their ON position(angle), they start blinking instead of remaining just turned on, as if the 5v power supply from the controller (red and black wire) cant provide enough current to keep the led on.

[dnmun]

my impression was that he had put an led on the hall sensor wire and it blinked. i was not aware he had ever measured the voltage on the hall sensor wire as the hall sensor was turned on and off by the magnets.

[beppe000]

I think he has already tested the actual sensor toggling as ok, except for the interference of whatever is causing the power fluctuation:

If i didnt make any mistake in my measurement this is exactly what happened to me. I first thought it was a hall sensor problem, but they work fine when not connected;
now i'm checking or replacing every connection (cable, some of which were a bit too long, and plughs), but i dont think i'll finish before tomorrow.

Thanks to everybody for your your help... i'll tell you as soon as i've finished.

[number1cruncher]

my impression was that he had put an led on the hall sensor wire and it blinked. i was not aware he had ever measured the voltage on the hall sensor wire as the hall sensor was turned on and off by the magnets.

I think led = lead here. As in meter probe.

I'm unclear whether he has checked the 5V signal on the throttle. It does sound like the hall 5V is fine if not plugged into the motor (engines use petrol Beppe )

If the power oscillates on the throttle, there's something wrong in the controller, probably the 78L15 or 7805 regulator as Fechter mentioned.

and (sometimes) i also charged my phone frome the 5v supply line. Anyway it is a possibility...

Beppe, please confirm that you have tested the throttle 5V. Also, its probably not wise to use the 5V line as a charger for your phone as the regulator is not made for that kind of load.

for gwhy! I didint understand what you mean by about " having a sort on the 5v line into the hall sensors, this will shut down the 5v line"

If your controller is working properly, a short on one of the halls could cause the 5V regulation to stop working, is what I think he's saying here.

Good Luck!

[dnmun]

an led in avalanche is essentially a short. that's why they normally put the resistor in series with them. he did say led, not lead. i just never saw anywhere that he actually tested the voltage on the hall sensor leads with a voltmeter.

[beppe000]

I tested the hall sensor ,disconnected from the controller, with a multimeter, it seem to work: i measure 0 or 5v on the sensor wires, which switch (0 and 5v) as soon as i move the wheel backward. So it seem to work properly.

Before connecting the hall sensor, i have a 5v on both throttle and hall sensor power lines: when i connect the sensor, after few seconds, it became instable, and i measure on the hall power line from 0 to 5v, and on the throttle line from 3 to 5v. so also the throttle power became unstable, but few than the hall power.

after disconnecting the pas and the brake i didint experience this problem anymore (but i didint test it for a long time, nor on the street); now i'm rewiring everything, because i found one pas wire damaged.

tomorrow i'll connect everything and we will see: if it works, it was a short on the pas which overload the 5v power, if it doesn't works it means that my controller has some problem and cant provide enough current for pas+throttle+hall+brake, so i'll have to check the 7805 regulator as suggested by Fechter.

[beppe000]

Ok, i'm almost sure i have a problem whith the 5v power supply: if i connect the hall sensor, after few seconds, i have the usual failure in the 5v line; so i disconnected everithing (pas, hall and brakes) and i let connected just the throttle and phases, and i run the motor, while measuring the 5v line of the throttle with a multimeter.
In this way it seemed me to work fine, except from some power failure which happened sometimes, but which last just for a moment, and if i let the throttle and then push it again it works: i thought it was due to the lacking of the hall sensor (even if in fact, my controller should work well sensorless) but checking the voltage with the multimeter i found out that this sudden failure are due to the instability of the power line (oscillating from 3 to 5v).

To better explain myself, my 5v always fails, but when the hall is connected the failure is irreversible until i power everything off and on, while if is connected just to the throttle, it fails, but after a moment it works again.

I tried to use(switching) the 3 power line i have (pas, throttle and hall), but they all behave the same, with a transient failure if connected to the throttle and a permanent failure if connected to the hall.

Next test will be to power every 5v line with an external 5v battery, this way maybe i'll be able to use the throttle without failure... we will see.

So i think i'll have to try to repair my controller 5v line (help would be really appreciated with this) or to buy another controller (maybe a better one which can use the pas and the throttle TOGETHER, since i live in Europe, can you suggest some controller with this characteristics?)

[beppe000]

No luck using an external battery, my controller doenst like it and it doesnt work at all.

If a defective 78l05 is responsible for this transient failures, how can i test it (since the failure seems intermittent)? Can i replace it with a 7805 regulator(i already have) or some better one?

I have a lot of 12v to 5v converter (1A max, for usb charging), can i use one of this as power supply at least for the throttle and/or the pas?
in this way i couldn't use the hall sensor anymore, but it would be easier to do, since i'd just have to take the 14v line out from the lm317t (the 36v to 14v converter inside the controller), and connect pas or throttle + and - wires to this new power source, and the signal line to the controller: do you think it might work? this way i wouldnt have to unsolder anything on my controller, just to solder a couple of wires.

I've found the schematics of the ku63 controller, i dont know if i can post the link here, but it is easy to find googleing: solar bike KU63 .

[fechter]

It should work OK to use an external 5v regulator coming off the 12v or 14v inside the controller.
I have seen cases where the microprocessor went bad and was loading down the 5v supply. If you still have drop out with an external regulator, you might check the processor chip to see if it is getting hot. Normally it should not get warm.