what is the Most efficiency nine continent motor ? 2808 ?

lifepo4ever

lifepo4ever

10 kW
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Québec , canada
hi everyone, i want purchase a rear 9c motor and running it at 48volt but am looking for more range and think the 2808 is the best for this use because it as 8 turn
and more copper mean more efficiency also what top speed i can achieve with 48 volt?
 
You can answer all of your questions by adjusting the ebikes.ca simulator.

http://ebikes.ca/simulator/
 
ambroseliao said:
You can answer all of your questions by adjusting the ebikes.ca simulator.

http://ebikes.ca/simulator/
Click to expand...

yes i know its exist but i don't trust the simulator my last set up my top speed was 83.4 kph and the simulator show me 69kph !!

Experience from ES members is better :D
 
That is probably because your battery voltage was higher than what the simulator would have. The simulator runs at the nominal voltage of the battery and not the actual voltage. As you know, actual voltages start higher than nominal and drop as you ride.

The simulator may not be accurate compared to the real world, but it will be the most consistent and accurate to compare different components...
 
lifepo4ever said:
Experience from ES members is better :D
Click to expand...

I'd agree that's the case for those who don't know how to interpret data and graphs :wink:

To answer your original question as to the most efficient 9C motor. In theory the 8x8 winding has the most copper fill factor at 64 strands*2 per slot, while the other popular winds (9x7 and 10x6) are a tad less at 63 and 60 respectively. In practice, the resulting difference is so small as to be completely undetectable, and even with good equipment also unmeasurable. The peak efficiency of all the winds is basically the same within any margin of measurement error.

If your metric for efficiency is wh/km rather than the ratio of input to output power on the motor, then the most efficient motor is going to be the one that encourages you on average to go at a slower speed. Up to a limit, the slower you ride the better your range and mileage. So in that sense, the 2808 will seem more 'efficient' than the 2807 or 2806 just because you won't be going as fast.

-Justin
 
ambroseliao said:
That is probably because your battery voltage was higher than what the simulator would have. The simulator runs at the nominal voltage of the battery and not the actual voltage. As you know, actual voltages start higher than nominal and drop as you ride.

The simulator may not be accurate compared to the real world, but it will be the most consistent and accurate to compare different components...
Click to expand...

lol i konw nominal voltage is so nominal voltage will be around 95 volt at full trottle so if I write 100 amp controller + 95 volt it will display worst result in top speed
sorry but it doesn't make sense to me if use the 2805 motor the result is correct top speed

3to 5 kph will be accrurate but not 15kph difference
 
justin_le said:
lifepo4ever said:
Experience from ES members is better :D
Click to expand...

I'd agree that's the case for those who don't know how to interpret data and graphs :wink:

To answer your original question as to the most efficient 9C motor. In theory the 8x8 winding has the most copper fill factor at 64 strands*2 per slot, while the other popular winds (9x7 and 10x6) are a tad less at 63 and 60 respectively. In practice, the resulting difference is so small as to be completely undetectable, and even with good equipment also unmeasurable. The peak efficiency of all the winds is basically the same within any margin of measurement error.

If your metric for efficiency is wh/km rather than the ratio of input to output power on the motor, then the most efficient motor is going to be the one that encourages you on average to go at a slower speed. Up to a limit, the slower you ride the better your range and mileage. So in that sense, the 2808 will seem more 'efficient' than the 2807 or 2806 just because you won't be going as fast.

-Justin
Click to expand...

ok so its like a caburator more speed you want more hp you need more fuel it will take to drive the vehicule , so anyway i want to konw if can still reach 40kph with moderate pedaling with the 2808 at 48v
 
My goal with my new set up is to do moderate pedaling on my bike so i can do i little bit of exercise :D but also reach higher speed with the pedal sensor so i can expand the range
 
I now use an 8x8 and find the CA calc to be spot on. for my parameters it says 44-48km/h @62V (my gross weight is in between two values) and on the road it does.... 45-50km/h!

Pretty good if you ask me. I've always been told that the 8x8 Is the best 9c motor to get, but don't expect to get 80km/h (50mph) easily out of it, without going crazy voltage.
 
Spicerack said:
I now use an 8x8 and find the CA calc to be spot on. for my parameters it says 44-48km/h @62V (my gross weight is in between two values) and on the road it does.... 45-50km/h!

Pretty good if you ask me. I've always been told that the 8x8 Is the best 9c motor to get, but don't expect to get 80km/h (50mph) easily out of it, without going crazy voltage.
Click to expand...

my last motor was the 2807 and that why i ask the question if there a big difference between theses motors so if run this 2808 40kph with some pedaling is realistic?
thanks for your reply
 
lifepo4ever said:
lol i konw nominal voltage is so nominal voltage will be around 95 volt at full trottle so if I write 100 amp controller + 95 volt it will display worst result in top speed
sorry but it doesn't make sense to me if use the 2805 motor the result is correct top speed
3to 5 kph will be accrurate but not 15kph difference
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly you are saying that you had a 2807 motor running at 95V, presumably in a 26" wheel? The simulator says that the motor output in that case at 83kph would be just under 2000 watts. At those speeds the aerodynamic profile of your bike, and the prevailing wind velocity play a massive role in how fast you go. With a streamline vehicle and/or a good tail wind 2kw will let you reach 80kph. Sitting upright with a puffy jacket and a headwind you might only get 55kph.

Try changing the vehicle parameters in the simulator (via a custom frontal area and drag coefficient) to appreciate this, and to find one that reflects the actual vehicle that you are trying to model, and maybe then it will all make more sense to you.

-Justin
 
justin_le said:
lifepo4ever said:
lol i konw nominal voltage is so nominal voltage will be around 95 volt at full trottle so if I write 100 amp controller + 95 volt it will display worst result in top speed
sorry but it doesn't make sense to me if use the 2805 motor the result is correct top speed
3to 5 kph will be accrurate but not 15kph difference
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly you are saying that you have a 2807 motor and are running at 95V, presumably in a 26" wheel? The simulator says that the motor output in that case at 83kph would be just under 2000 watts. At those speeds the aerodynamic profile of your bike, and the prevailing wind velocity direction play a massive role in how fast you go. With a streamline vehicle and/or a good tail wind 2kw will let you reach 80kph. Sitting upright with a puffy jacket and a headwind you might only get 55kph.

Try changing the vehicle parameters in the simulator (via a custom frontal area and drag coefficient) to appreciate this, and to find one that reflects the actual vehicle that you are trying to model, and maybe then it will all make more sense to you.

-Justin
Click to expand...

thank you master :D will try this but i still don't know what motor I will order from you and they are on sale !!! best deal on the web :D
 
I've played with the simulator plenty and it seems that there is a difference and according to the simulator, it isn't immeasurable there. In addition to this, there is a torque difference, at least on the chart.
 
Hi there if i may put in my experiance:
ive tried high torque and high speed motors at diferent voltages with the same power limited amount using the cycle analyst v3 and it seems to me the high torque motor will take longer to over heat even if set up with more voltage to get some speed, this is fairly accurately shown in the ebike.ca/simulator . however i will say the bike and geometry makes a BIG diference to the peformance of the overall performance. wheel size, leaning foward (aero tuck), tyre pressue,knoblies / slicks /fat / thin. these factors seem to be just as important as the slow or fast wind of the motor. prety much as Justin just said.
having said that i would go for a slow motor with high voltage, it seems smoother and due to not over heating as easily may also increase efficiency because it runs cooler. I could be wrong though.
 
bowlofsalad said:
I've played with the simulator plenty and it seems that there is a difference and according to the simulator, it isn't immeasurable there. In addition to this, there is a torque difference, at least on the chart.
Click to expand...

yes but the trottle % is not the same so the data will be different if you climb a hill with both motor at the same time the 2808 will climb faster
 
pendragon8000 said:
Hi there if i may put in my experiance:
ive tried high torque and high speed motors at diferent voltages with the same power limited amount using the cycle analyst v3 and it seems to me the high torque motor will take longer to over heat even if set up with more voltage to get some speed, this is fairly accurately shown in the ebike.ca/simulator . however i will say the bike and geometry makes a BIG diference to the peformance of the overall performance. wheel size, leaning foward (aero tuck), tyre pressue,knoblies / slicks /fat / thin. these factors seem to be just as important as the slow or fast wind of the motor. prety much as Justin just said.
having said that i would go for a slow motor with high voltage, it seems smoother and due to not over heating as easily may also increase efficiency because it runs cooler. I could be wrong though.
Click to expand...

if i can reach 40kph with some pedaling with the 2808 at 48volt i will buy this motor or am going to use faster motor
 
pendragon8000 said:
i wouldnt say "some pedaling" maby with allot of pedaling. and slicks pumped up high pressure and good gear ratio like 44 front 11 rear then i would expect you'll get 40kph but im no expert.
btw how fast can you pedal a normal bike?
Click to expand...

not very fast lol my normal speed on a normal bike is around 20kph max lol
 
ok well thats good you can be realistic if thats your max speed, maby you will need a faster motor.
i have found the simulator is reseved to acount for mid pressure wheels and knobly tyres with an uplright rider and no assistance. so if you want to take a risk you could get the 2808 and know you will be efficient and be able to climb hills no worries and you should be able to get at least 35kph if you go with pumped up slicks and lean foward and pedal as hard as you do when you have no motor, I wouldn't want to get your hopes up and say you'll get 40kph but if was doing it i would expect to be able to push it upto 40kph for at least 15 mins or so but im a fitness instructor if that puts it in perspective.
EDIT:
sorry i just checked the sim and its saying 36 kph for the 2808, i dont know what i was thinking, must have got mixed up some where..
I say go for it :)
 
pendragon8000 said:
ok well thats good you can be realistic if thats your max speed, maby you will need a faster motor.
i have found the simulator is reseved to acount for mid pressure wheels and knobly tyres with an uplright rider and no assistance. so if you want to take a risk you could get the 2808 and know you will be efficient and be able to climb hills no worries and you should be able to get at least 35kph if you go with pumped up slicks and lean foward and pedal as hard as you do when you have no motor, I wouldn't want to get your hopes up and say you'll get 40kph but if was doing it i would expect to be able to push it upto 40kph for at least 15 mins or so but im a fitness instructor if that puts it in perspective.
EDIT:
sorry i just checked the sim and its saying 36 kph for the 2808, i dont know what i was thinking, must have got mixed up some where..
I say go for it :)
Click to expand...

:D i will make my choice tomorow and wait to see if someone got already one on is bike just to be sure i can reach this speed with moderate pedaling thanks
 
lifepo4ever said:
bowlofsalad said:
I've played with the simulator plenty and it seems that there is a difference and according to the simulator, it isn't immeasurable there. In addition to this, there is a torque difference, at least on the chart.
Click to expand...

yes but the trottle % is not the same so the data will be different if you climb a hill with both motor at the same time the 2808 will climb faster
Click to expand...

Yes, you can clearly see in the picture that the 2808 has higher torque. I am aware the throttle isn't the same. The picture depicts the watt hour per mile (wh/mi) difference at the same speed. Justin was saying the difference was immeasurable. 1.4 watt hours per mile is far from immeasurable.
 
bowlofsalad said:
Yes, you can clearly see in the picture that the 2808 has higher torque. I am aware the throttle isn't the same. The picture depicts the watt hour per mile (wh/mi) difference at the same speed. Justin was saying the difference was immeasurable. 1.4 watt hours per mile is far from immeasurable.
Click to expand...

Most of that difference is actually stems from the controller losses as a result of choosing the small 20A controller with thinner phase leads and higher resistance mosfets, rather than from the motor itself. Try repeating the experiment but using a custom controller with 0 Ohms.
Simulator Example.jpg

So the simulator output is correct in showing the difference in torque/range between the two windings, but your assumption on the source of that difference stemming from the motor is off. In a fair comparison, if you use a faster motor at a lower voltage, you should also be using thicker gauge phase wire and lower resistance mosfets for the motor performances to be equal. The motors aren't any more likely to overheat in either case.
 
Well, that was my laugh for the day, Thanks.

You want to go fast, and extend range with pedaling. Let see, you are going to be using about 2000w of power, and your puny 50-100w of pedaling effort will extend your range by how much? It's not going to add much more than a few blocks of range if you are hauling ass.

You want longer range, you have to either slow down, or tote more battery. Once you slow down, it doesn't matter that much which winding you use, if it's flat and you aren't stopping every block.

The 2808 should be a good motor choice in the end though. It will lose a bit less going up hills to heat than a 2807. My choice for really long range riding is the 2810 at 48v. No speed, only about 32 kph at WOT. Which doubles my range compared to riding 50 kph. Great for grinding up the rocky mountains too. Not being able to ride faster is the key. Give me ability to go 50 kph, and pretty soon I'm not riding 32 kph anymore.

Do the math, if I'm riding along using 300w, my puny 100w of pedaling now adds a big percentage when it brings the total to 400w. Now it's worth pedaling.
 
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