brushless motor dilema

mikebikerad

mikebikerad

1 kW
Joined
May 25, 2008
Messages
368
Location
Seattle, Wa
My golden motor running at 48 volts with an e-crazyman controller is whack. My positive battery connector came off of my foxx lipo4 pack on a super bumpy dirt road. Now after reconnecting it the next day the motor won't spin is just moves back and forth and stalls while making the electric jamming noise. Where should I look first to fix this problem? thanks
 
I'll help you. You may have a shorted wire. There is a logical diagnostic procedure so you can rule out possible problems.

Send me a PM or post here.
 
Diagnostics ...

Fechter is (of course) correct. Often when networking computers almost all problems come down to WIRING WIRING WIRING. A loose connection somewhere always will screw with your head (and your network).

Same thing goes for e bikes. A single loose hall connector will make that exact problem you described happen. I doubt there is any problem with the controller. And unless you trashed the wire harness out of the hub then you probably don’t have a broken wire.

Check the connector of the 5 hall wires. Make sure they are really connected. Sometimes the flat pin connectors pull out.
Also check the connectors of the 3 phase wires. Make sure they are really connected too.

Do this first and then post and we go to next step.

cheers
 
All the hall and phase connections are solid. I don't think any wires pulled out of the motor but the dirt road I was o was in pretty bad shape. something could have shaken off. thanks for all the help. And thanks for the sweet controller knuckles, hopefully it won't be the problem because it seems pretty robust compared to my previous golden motor controller :?:
 
OK. Now the next logical step is to check your motor hall sensors. Test the hall sensors just to be sure that they are working.
If your sensors don't vary from 0V to 5V they may need to be replaced (or there could be a break in the wire harness).
Use your multimeter to probe the connections of the 5-pin hall connector.

The black lead (-) of the multimeter goes to the black (ground) of the hall sensor connector.
The red lead (+) of the multimeter is used to probe the yellow, green and blue hall signals of the hall sensor connector.
If any one of these don't vary as you slowly turn your wheel then it may be surgery time. :shock:
btw ... DO NOT connect the phase wires while testing the hall sensors.
I also like to use a 1-amp fuse on the power to the controller when testing to keep any excitement down to a minimum.

See My Hall Sensor Testing vid ...
[youtube]7m8DA6mmo84[/youtube]
 
Time for surgery! :shock:
only one of the hall wires was good by knuckles test. the attached pic where the meter reads 5.30 is one of the bad ones that didn't change. all the(3) bad hall wires read between 5.3 and 6.0. The wires run looks unscathed and the hub definitely didn't spin. thanks for the awesome diy video knuckles. priceless.
 

Attachments

  • hall bads.jpg
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  • hall good.jpg
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additionally my blue and green wires are switched on the hall connectors because that is what ran best forwards. thanks
 
Yes. When a hall sensor is bad it may often just stay at 5v. Triple check you test results. Take a break and do it again just to be sure. You may even want to try the old 9v battery trick too (fechter's hall sensor test). But it seems like you just nailed the problem. Just be sure before you "scrub up" for surgery on the motor.

Anyway the entire surgical procedure is here ... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4626
But no rush as you need to order the hall sensors from digikey first (do that now ... very cheap ... buy extras).
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=480-1999-ND

Sorry bro! :cry: I feel your pain!

btw. I have many sensorless adapters coming from Keywin.
See his post here ... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4179&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p61973

This sounds kind of neat and it eliminates those pesky hall sensors. Just need a very slight forward motion and off you go (I think).
 
Knuckles said:
btw. I have many sensorless adapters coming from Keywin.
See his post here ... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4179&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p61973

This sounds kind of neat and it eliminates those pesky hall sensors. Just need a very slight forward motion and off you go (I think).
Click to expand...
Ha Ha! The sensorless adapters came in today (along with 8 new Bafang PMGR motors and other goodies).
Keywin had installed one of the sensorless adapters in a stock 48V controller for me to use as a wiring example.
So the first thing I did was to try it on the Bafang Geared motor.

8/17/08: Correction! I just tested the module on a DD BLDC motor. It only spins in ONE DIRECTION! Switch two phase wires and it runs the other direction!

I was so very happy! This is so cool!

Here is what these very cool "module" things look like (they are about the size of a quarter) ...
View attachment 1
Here is how the wiring goes ...
sensorless-wiring.jpg
SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? :D

NO MORE HALL SENSORS! HURRAY!

Yea Haw! :lol:

Cheers!
K

BTW ... Price is like retarded CHEAP! Like $20 (my cost is much less but I want to keep the three extras I have!)
Man! I am gonna stuff the "Phat"est phase wires thru a hub I am re-building now! Ha Ha no more hall sensors!
AND ... I have a way for it to work on the new Infineon MEGA controller too! (It needs a 15V power source inside the controller.)
 
Umm so if you roll a touch backwards on a hill as you start...it will go BACKWARDS???

That's so DANGEROUS!! :shock:

Is there a Bafang motor that will fit in 135mm dropouts yet?
 
Yes. This one is quite a hopeful candidate ... http://98.131.176.65/endless-sphere/swxh138mm.pdf

8/17/08: Correction! I just tested the module on a DD BLDC motor. It only spins in ONE DIRECTION! Switch two phase wires and it runs the other direction!
 
Actually for a trike it would be quite useful! Sometimes I gotta do the "foot scoot" to back up, and it aint easy up a hill!!!!
otherDoc
 
Ha Ha. I took a close look. They sanded off the ID of the microprocessors!

But my cost (Keywin's cost) is so cheap ... who freaking cares!

You want a dozen? No problem. Installation (labor) is way way way more expensive than the module cost.

I just think this module thingy is so freaking cool! 8)

8/17/08: Correction! I just tested the module on a DD BLDC motor. It only spins in ONE DIRECTION! Switch two phase wires and it runs the other direction!
 
Well I have been riding the sensorless controller on a DD motor (72V 30 amps) for a few days now.
I very much like it ... BUT ...

PROS:
1) No Hall sensors needed!
2) Starts from dead stop (and only in forward direction)
3) Performs same exact speed and acceleration as with halls connected

CONS:
1) Requires "soft start" on throttle or may experience motor "shutter"
2) Motor will "shutter" if I hold it back (with your feet) at stopped position.
3) Motor "shutter" will occur under 8 MPH (my DD motor) if I gun the throttle

Once over 8-10 MPH I can gun the throttle all I want. No shutter.

Using a soft start on throttle it works perfect on my low k value DD motor.

This sensorless module may be perfect for a geared motor (even with free wheel) as rotor rpm is much higher.

I think this a WINNER!

Testers WANTED!


-K
 
Testers wanted? I have plenty of sensorless motors that I could try on your controllers. Got an extra controller I could buy too?
 
I have the modules. About the size of a quarter. Fit in an envelope. $20 ea. Keywin can get thousands.

Requires 8 wires to be soldered to module and then to a controller board.

OR ... I just ask Keywin to make them on the Infineon. I would keep the hall connector and use a switch maybe to toggle the module on/off.
(btw I hear the infineon will run 6000 rpm motors ... :D )

That way can be used with OR without the hall sensors. I have to test that next.

PM me ... we talk deal

-K

sensor-less.jpg

Size of module is exaggerated for clarity.
 
So I had a dead e-bike with blown hall sensors and then knuckles hooked me up with a controller from keywin with the sensor less adapter installed and walla! Just as knuckles states the motor does shutter when holding it wide open from a stop. I can still throw rocks in my dirt driveway but under load, from a stop, gunning it , produces a strong shutter. This is fine for commuters but maybe not so great for electro-maniacs who want to smoke out Ferrari's at the stop light. It also makes you accelerate more efficiently.

- As for performance, It rocks. Everything runs surprisingly smooth and my motor wire seems to stay cooler under load. this may be due to the unused sensor wires dispursing heat and not adding to the problem? All in all I was impressed.

It feels neat to be riding on a sensor less, brush less motor. I let one of my motocross buddies ride it today in town and he was amazed. I think it made him realize that Fossil fuel is dinosaur technology. Pics to come soon.

mike
 
Another day of rigorous testing revealed no flaws then already stated cons. Quantya's American representatives brought a trailer full of bikes to a buddies track locally and we had a sweet day of electric mania. The Qauntya guys were surprisingly impressed with the e-bike. funny because it only cost me 1/10th of a quantya. I drag raced one of their duel sport models and wasn't to far behind, woo hoo!
 
Hey Knuckles! It sounds like I'm gonna need one of those sensorless modules too. I got shudder now with the halls. Hope springs eternal!
otherDoc
 
Mike,

Sounds like you are happy. I like the SL module too. I figure it will realy shine in a geared motor where the BEMF is higher at much lower wheel rpm.

So cool how it starts from dead stop on a DD motor (or any motor). But the "hall-less" R/C crowd is already hopping up and down about this module thingy.

Install on the Infineon is on my 2-do list.

-knuckles

PS. You want your old :lol: controller back?
 
docnjoj said:
Hey Knuckles! It sounds like I'm gonna need one of those sensorless modules too. I got shudder now with the halls. Hope springs eternal!
otherDoc
Click to expand...

On the Bafang motor? :shock:

PM me so we can talk.
 
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