Magnet/Reed Switch to limit to 250w

Hi all,

I am wondering if this is at all possible.

I have
- Crystalyte 72v Controller
- Cycle Analyst v3

The CA has 3 presets, Legal, Economy and Power. This is working great however as law enforcement become more familiar with various ebike setups (aware of the presets of the CA) i was wondering if a failover to 250w is possible using a magnet switch. Without the magnet in place the bike will run at a max of 250w, with the magnet the full wattage of the bike is enabled.

I don't think a bike with that box will ever be legal. If the user has the ability to press a few buttons and go faster then faster it is.

If you use an external shunt you could mod that. Thus even set to full, the bike would still be retarded.

The eu 250w regs adopted by most point this out. Bikes like the a2b have offroad ability but you can't switch to it. You have to do a hardware change. A different battery. Putting you on a non approved bike.

If fiddling can make it faster it's not allowed. Which the ca offers. Oddly so do the latest lcd displays, but you don't get told how in the supplied instructions. It is seen as a factory mod.

The EU regs are pretty thorough and detailed, and sadly seem tied to 'rated' motor power. There may be wiggle room in the referenced IEC-60034-1 spec that addresses DC motors with an external power converter, but that looks tenuous. The basic problem is the motor rating - having a big motor seems to carry with it the assumption that the power will be used and so is illegal.

That said, what you propose is possible with the V3 in principle. You would configure the Aux Input for 'Preset Mode', define two presets, then use the setup utility to hide the max power and preset setup menus so the limits could not be inspected. Any SPST switch from the AuxPot input to ground would switch presets. Simple.

If you wanted to present an 'arguably legal' face with the local constabulary, you might install an 'on-road/off-road' key switch with a removable key that is located far away from the rider and unquestionably requires a rider dismount to switch. If stopped, the bike will (hopefully) be in the on-road mode which would reflect the way you were just riding. Here you put on a good face and point out that off-road mode cannot be entered when underway - but the outcome is going to be at the discretion of the officer. Obviously you could attempt to finagle something to supersede the key switch with a magnetic reed switch, RFID module, or other pocket transmitter, but that's another matter and certainly wouldn't withstand scrutiny.

If I had to contend with your laws, I'd get the thing registered...

You can't make it legal by restricting it to 250w. It has to be a 250w motor to be legal (EN15194). You can use your method to restrict the speed though, if that makes you feel better. You just need a normally closed or NC NO reed switch. The magnet holds it open for unrestricted, and when you remove the magnet, the switch closes to bring in the restriction. You need a fairly robust reed switch like those window alarm ones.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NC-NO-Optional-Door-Window-Contact-Magnetic-Reed-Switch-Alarm-Security-10-20mm-/300960282044

d8veh said:

You can't make it legal by restricting it to 250w. It has to be a 250w motor to be legal (EN15194). You can use your method to restrict the speed though, if that makes you feel better. You just need a normally closed or NC NO reed switch. The magnet holds it open for unrestricted, and when you remove the magnet, the switch closes to bring in the restriction. You need a fairly robust reed switch like those window alarm ones.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NC-NO-Optional-Door-Window-Contact-Magnetic-Reed-Switch-Alarm-Security-10-20mm-/300960282044

Click to expand...

where do it say in EN15194 that a motor has to be 250W.. the only thing i have seen is that the power must not exceed 250W

gwhy! said:

d8veh said:

You can't make it legal by restricting it to 250w. It has to be a 250w motor to be legal (EN15194). You can use your method to restrict the speed though, if that makes you feel better. You just need a normally closed or NC NO reed switch. The magnet holds it open for unrestricted, and when you remove the magnet, the switch closes to bring in the restriction. You need a fairly robust reed switch like those window alarm ones.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NC-NO-Optional-Door-Window-Contact-Magnetic-Reed-Switch-Alarm-Security-10-20mm-/300960282044

Click to expand...

where do it say in EN15194 that a motor has to be 250W.. the only thing i have seen is that the power must not exceed 250W

Click to expand...

this stands at the first point (i only have the german edition) EN 15194:2009+A1:2011 / DIN EN 15194:2012-02
maximum rated continous performance 0,25KW.... 8)

If you read the standard, you find out, that this information has to be placed also at the motor....

Also inportant: battery voltage must be below 48V DC

But at europe every country has his own legislation - and you have to orient to this - specific country law.
This means - how you can use an electric bike at road.
Example Austria:
You are allowed to drive with 600W up to 25km/h - with an throttle - at bikes ways.
(This has nothing to do with the EN15194) - its an specific law.

gwhy! said:

d8veh said:

You can't make it legal by restricting it to 250w. It has to be a 250w motor to be legal (EN15194). You can use your method to restrict the speed though, if that makes you feel better. You just need a normally closed or NC NO reed switch. The magnet holds it open for unrestricted, and when you remove the magnet, the switch closes to bring in the restriction. You need a fairly robust reed switch like those window alarm ones.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NC-NO-Optional-Door-Window-Contact-Magnetic-Reed-Switch-Alarm-Security-10-20mm-/300960282044

Click to expand...

where do it say in EN15194 that a motor has to be 250W.. the only thing i have seen is that the power must not exceed 250W

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I thought it was exactly the opposite - run as much power as you want/can, but the motor must be rated at a maximum of 250W.

You can do what you want - until you have an accident - and somebody look up
in reality it look like nobody cares about your bike - until you drive not faster than 25km/h in europe.
The power does not realy care somebody

i often gets stoped by the police - but they are only interested what kind of vehicle i use and want to talk with me

The other problem is, i also get stoped with my legal scooter with licence plate - and they had problems at the role - because i use the brake switch, and if the use the front brake - the rear Motor does not work - so its hard to measure the speed....

The limit is on the motor, not the power. The motor has to be rated at no more than 250w, but you can put as much power through it as you want. There's nothing to stop you water-cooling your Bafang SWX and putting 30 amps through it.

Has anyone any knowledge of the 48v rule. I've heard that a SGS wouldn't certify a 48v bike to EN 15194 because the battery went up to 54v. My interpretation is that nominal 48v should be OK, but it isn't clear in the standard.

d8veh said:

The limit is on the motor, not the power. The motor has to be rated at no more than 250w, but you can put as much power through it as you want. There's nothing to stop you water-cooling your Bafang SWX and putting 30 amps through it.

Has anyone any knowledge of the 48v rule. I've heard that a SGS wouldn't certify a 48v bike to EN 15194 because the battery went up to 54v. My interpretation is that nominal 48v should be OK, but it isn't clear in the standard.

Click to expand...

so how is the testing authorities going to test if a motor is rated for 250W if the motor has nothing to say its 250W? Im not 100% sure about this as the only way they can test is to distruction.

edit:
and how long can they run it for as even a 250W and maybe run 750W and may be even higher in short bursts.. I was running a 200W ( totally unmodified hub motor ) at 1.5kw for nearly 14months.

d8veh said:

Has anyone any knowledge of the 48v rule. I've heard that a SGS wouldn't certify a 48v bike to EN 15194 because the battery went up to 54v. My interpretation is that nominal 48v should be OK, but it isn't clear in the standard.

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The battery 48V limit is set becouse the international definition of high (dangerouse) voltage is above 60V.
So a 14s li-ion (48V nominal) charged full @ 4.2V per cell is street legal internationaly.

gwhy! said:

d8veh said:

The limit is on the motor, not the power. The motor has to be rated at no more than 250w, but you can put as much power through it as you want. There's nothing to stop you water-cooling your Bafang SWX and putting 30 amps through it.

Has anyone any knowledge of the 48v rule. I've heard that a SGS wouldn't certify a 48v bike to EN 15194 because the battery went up to 54v. My interpretation is that nominal 48v should be OK, but it isn't clear in the standard.

Click to expand...

so how is the testing authorities going to test if a motor is rated for 250W if the motor has nothing to say its 250W? Im not 100% sure about this as the only way they can test is to distruction.

edit:
and how long can they run it for as even a 250W and maybe run 750W and may be even higher in short bursts.. I was running a 200W ( totally unmodified hub motor ) at 1.5kw for nearly 14months.

Click to expand...

The motor would be stamped or labelled 250w. If it isn't, it would be up to you to prove that it's a 250w one by showing a catalogue listing or something similar. You could make it a lot easier if you made sure it was labelled, which is not too difficult. One like this should work:

48V BATTERY Voltage means the nominal Cell voltage - normaly 3.7V - that means a 13S Limn Battery - is the maximum.
A 14s battery should be not allowed.

The maximum power of the motor - bike could be measure at the police - and depands on the national law - as i already told.

My personal opinion: it only make sense to regulate the max speed, the power does not realy care - if you drive max 25km/h.
You only need at max 500 -700W at this case - without pedaling.

Dont forget:
At the EN 15194 there are also some other important thinks, not only Power of the motor and Battery voltage.
EMV measurement, Delay Time for the PAS,Breaking Switch and and and.
The new version is more difficult than the first one - who the most knows.
There are links to other standards - for example: The wire dimension is one topic.....

The EN 15194 is more an "help" for producer, for an private person - its better to take a look to the national law.
It think in no country law there is an link to the EN 15194. (but that could also be - i know only the austrian law)

I'm only asking this stuff to get people option.. but what if you were stopped by the bill and your motor was not stamped and you know it to be legal but they wanted to confiscate your bike.. what would you do .....

would you put into high power/speed mode and say catch me copper
or let mister bill take your bike so it will never been seen again ?

I know what I would do but thats another topic

Edit:
Or if you did have the motor stamped but mister bill did not believe it did conform to the regs and still wanted to take it for testing would you let them take it ?

GreenRoad said:

48V BATTERY Voltage means the nominal Cell voltage - normaly 3.7V - that means a 13S Limn Battery - is the maximum.
A 14s battery should be not allowed.

Click to expand...

Can u show me the law text from it ? i highly believe that any battery which stays under 60V fully charged is within the norm.
Its like the "25km/h" limit if the motor cuts power @ 27km/h its still street legal but @ 28km/h your bike is gone and another lawyer is geting richer.

Can u show me the law text from it ? i highly believe that any battery which stays under 60V fully charged is within the norm.
Its like the "25km/h" limit if the motor cuts power @ 27km/h its still street legal but @ 28km/h your bike is gone and another lawyer is geting richer.

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i send you an PM
The max voltage is limited to 48V

@gwhy!
if the police stopps you - and you have an problem to explain the power of the motor - he will give you an appointment for an extra test.
In austria the normaly only measure the max speed (at scooters) direct - if they stop you.
The problem is, if you have an accident - and the police confiscate your bike.

GreenRoad said:

Can u show me the law text from it ? i highly believe that any battery which stays under 60V fully charged is within the norm.
Its like the "25km/h" limit if the motor cuts power @ 27km/h its still street legal but @ 28km/h your bike is gone and another lawyer is geting richer.

Click to expand...

i send you an PM
The max voltage is limited to 48V

Click to expand...

In this document is also only 25km/h as max. but its 27,5km/h max.
Where is it from? don't look legit.

Here is someone selling a 14s li-ion with 59V full voltage for pedelecs.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Lithium-Ione...=DE_Sport_Elektro_Scooter&hash=item1c3efd781e

\/ampa said:

GreenRoad said:

Can u show me the law text from it ? i highly believe that any battery which stays under 60V fully charged is within the norm.
Its like the "25km/h" limit if the motor cuts power @ 27km/h its still street legal but @ 28km/h your bike is gone and another lawyer is geting richer.

Click to expand...

i send you an PM
The max voltage is limited to 48V

Click to expand...

In this document is also only 25km/h as max. but its 27,5km/h max.
Where is it from? don't look legit.

Here is someone selling a 14s li-ion with 59V full voltage for pedelecs.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Lithium-Ione...=DE_Sport_Elektro_Scooter&hash=item1c3efd781e

Click to expand...

Fahrräder – Elektromotorisch unterstützte Räder – EPAC-Fahrräder; Deutsche Fassung EN 15194:2009+A1:2011
i have the original Standart - but its not allowed to post / publish.
You could donwload an preview or buy one
https://shop.austrian-standards.at/search/Details.action?dokkey=413089
And there you could also find on the preview pages - the things with 48v

Still that anybody sells an 14S battery back als "Pedelec Battery" does not mean that this is legal - or in other words .... also nothing to do with EN 15194
I only post what is written in the standard. Normaly every voltage below 60V DC is okay.

For the Speed there exists also tolerances -

But take a look on
http://www.nationaler-radverkehrsplan.de/neuigkeiten/news.php?id=4091
there is also written max 25km/h, 250W - you have to pedal, but you can use an throttle up to 6km/h
- as i told - this is national law..... nothing to do with the EN 15194:2009+A1:2011

GreenRoad said:

@gwhy!
if the police stopps you - and you have an problem to explain the power of the motor - he will give you an appointment for an extra test.
In austria the normaly only measure the max speed (at scooters) direct - if they stop you.
The problem is, if you have an accident - and the police confiscate your bike.

Click to expand...

Yes I totally agree with this stance but unless the bike is registered or you can prove who you are at the time of being stopped then the chances are that they will take the bike. Of coarse not all of the Mr Bill's follow the same guide lines so some may be fine and let you go on your merry way with a few words of caution but others like to throw there weight around just to prove a point that they can.

as regards a extra test.. what will they do ? test the motor without using the controller that is fitted to the bike ? which will not be fair, or just look for any hidden or visible power switches on your existing controller if it turns out that it only can output 250W ?

i only can speak for austria:
if you drive not faster than 25kmh you have no problems with the cops.
With 25km/h you need also not more than 600W - which is legal in austria.
if you have an bike - which drives 70km/ without an licence plate, without helmet - you have an problem.

We are talking for using the bike at "normal public streets" - if you drive on other ways - you can do what you want....


Iam a dealer an i have also "special licence Plates" for testing vehicles on the Road - so i can do what i want at street - but i need the driving licence for the kind of bike i use..... its difficult - but okay.
I also drive with an electrical go-Kart on the public road.... was also verry nice.

As i told allready - you have to take care if you have an accident, or in worst case you kill an person with your bike - than they will check up you bike at details, to see how much power you use, and also the max speed.

but still with a CA-v3 and using low-power legal preset for startup will make it hard for them to proof that you used high power. and even if they may find something the accident has to be in direct connection to the over powered bike. so if you run a red light and kill someone it doesn't matter if your bike has 250W, 600W or 20kW.

izeman said:

but still with a CA-v3 and using low-power legal preset for startup will make it hard for them to proof that you used high power. and even if they may find something the accident has to be in direct connection to the over powered bike. so if you run a red light and kill someone it doesn't matter if your bike has 250W, 600W or 20kW.

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hello
We could discuss this topic on many pages - but its always the same.
Take a look to the national law - there you could find what you are allowed and what not.

If you use a 3 speed switch - its a good solution - but it think not realy clear at every country.
In austria it should be no problem - because the law says - you are not allowed to drive an vehicle with more than 600w on public roads.
but its also allowed to drive an segway - like an ebike - but the power of an segway is higher than 600W ----- so :?

afach ned da'wisch'n loss'n!

translation: just don't get caught

yes - thats also a reason why i have mounted a "back window" at my bike - because it happens that the police drive some time back behind me.... 8)

gwhy! said:

Edit:
Or if you did have the motor stamped but mister bill did not believe it did conform to the regs and still wanted to take it for testing would you let them take it ?

Click to expand...

Let them tske it. There's no test that they can do regarding the power because there's no maximum power allowed. Of course if you stuck your own label over the 500w stamping on the motor, they could peel it off. Then your in trouble. As long as your bike only does 25km/h, I don't think you'll have a problem. I think I heard that there's a proposal to remove the power limit in 2017, maybe because it can't be tested or enforced anyway.