Bike Cutting out after 10 minutes

geosped

100 W
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
258
My bike is cutting out 10 minutes into my ride. Not sure what's going on I suspect my controller is getting to hot and cutting out. If I just let it sit for 5 to 10 minutes it comes back on and I can ride again for another 10 minutes or so. What do you guys think??

I'm running 12S 5000mah pack. My controller is a 36v 25A Max. It was pretty warm to the touch. Watt meter peaked at 1261w and 26A

I'm assuming controller was cutting out. I'm a noob so any help would be appreciated.

Also if it's the controller anyone recommend a good one at a decent price. I'd like to run anywhere from 12S-16S 44v-60v 10mah Lipo.

Pics attached.

This is a BMC v2 torque motor kit.

If infact you guys think it's the controller. I've heard that Lyen has well built controllers at reasonable prices. Which one would you recommend? Basically looking to trail ride lots of climbing but only for a couple minutes at a time.
 

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Where do you keep your controller when running the bike? Not closed up in the bag, I hope.
 
If the controller is in the bag, get it out. It's overheating. Shouldn't be LVC stopping you, with new batteries, presumably getting a full charge.
 
CONGRATS!!

You have the ALL TIME RECORD for starting the most noob threads in the shortest amount of time!!

16 in 12 days :roll:
 
I mentioned I was a NOOB. Besides based on my questions it's fairly evident. No the controller is not in the bag it's mounted under my bike carrier. That would be super noob. I'm just a noob getting better and better with every post that I read. The controller is not too hot to touch but pretty warm. The battery even warm to the touch when it stopped I check each cell (cell checker) they were all reading 4.10-4.12. I have the same issue with my and old 12S 5ah pack. Here is a pic not sure you can see the controller but you can see the wires coming out from under the bag. Now I looked at my watt meter under WOT going up a slight gradient street. It read 26a. Watt's on motor peaked at 1261. What do you guys think is going on?

I was thinking of just running this on 10S 5ah pack and see if it cuts out. That's what it's actually designed for. See if it cuts out. If it still cuts out then I've got a potential issue with the motor :-( Any other thoughts from the non-noobs.
 

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sounds like you have a bad connection that goes open circuit when it heats up and then closes later when it cools off.

what do the wire connections look like? what was the minimum voltage on the wattsup?
 
geosped said:
I mentioned I was a NOOB. Besides based on my questions it's fairly evident. No the controller is not in the bag it's mounted under my bike carrier. That would be super noob. I'm just a noob getting better and better with every post that I read. The controller is not too hot to touch but pretty warm. The battery even warm to the touch when it stopped I check each cell (cell checker) they were all reading 4.10-4.12. I have the same issue with my and old 12S 5ah pack. Here is a pic not sure you can see the controller but you can see the wires coming out from under the bag. Now I looked at my watt meter under WOT going up a slight gradient street. It read 26a. Watt's on motor peaked at 1261. What do you guys think is going on?

I was thinking of just running this on 10S 5ah pack and see if it cuts out. That's what it's actually designed for. See if it cuts out. If it still cuts out then I've got a potential issue with the motor :-( Any other thoughts from the non-noobs.
Is it always 10 min.s?
If so, that might indicate a timing function.
was that controller ever used with some sort of display?
I think I saw a pic. of the controller wires, but in all these posts, I can't find it again.
(See my point, for your next bike, try and consolidate your threads and never double post)
 
dnmun said:
sounds like you have a bad connection that goes open circuit when it heats up and then closes later when it cools off.

what do the wire connections look like? what was the minimum voltage on the wattsup?

Would this be in the controller then? I took the screws off cover and it's all filled with epoxy. I couldn't see anything. The connections to all the plugs are nice and tight.
 

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Some 36V controllers will work on 12S and some won't, but usually they just smoke.
It doesn't hurt to have an extra controller, but you don't need the 72V Infinfeon.
Leyn can custom modify a controller for you, but expect weeks to get it.
If you are sure you want an Infineon, Grin will ship you one right away. the 25 A version is probly enough for your batteries, certainly no higher than the 35A model
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/freewheels/fw8spd1132.html
I LIKE THIS CONTROLLER;
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X36v+48v+500+watt+9-FET+ebike+controller.TRS0&_nkw=36v+48v+500+watt+9-FET+ebike+controller&_sacat=0
At 19A, iot's a little under-powered for your application, but it is inexpensive, is shipped fast and best of all, for you, it has a very good LVC for 12S Lipo.

EDIT: OK, you posted the pic while I was typing, but I see it has 63uF caps.
But, it looks really generic to me and I think you could do better(But I am no expert on controllers).
 
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motomech said:
geosped said:
I mentioned I was a NOOB. Besides based on my questions it's fairly evident. No the controller is not in the bag it's mounted under my bike carrier. That would be super noob. I'm just a noob getting better and better with every post that I read. The controller is not too hot to touch but pretty warm. The battery even warm to the touch when it stopped I check each cell (cell checker) they were all reading 4.10-4.12. I have the same issue with my and old 12S 5ah pack. Here is a pic not sure you can see the controller but you can see the wires coming out from under the bag. Now I looked at my watt meter under WOT going up a slight gradient street. It read 26a. Watt's on motor peaked at 1261. What do you guys think is going on?

I was thinking of just running this on 10S 5ah pack and see if it cuts out. That's what it's actually designed for. See if it cuts out. If it still cuts out then I've got a potential issue with the motor :-( Any other thoughts from the non-noobs.
Is it always 10 min.s?
If so, that might indicate a timing function.
was that controller ever used with some sort of display?
I think I saw a pic. of the controller wires, but in all these posts, I can't find it again.
(See my point, for your next bike, try and consolidate your threads and never double post)

Not sure if it's a timing thing or not we go up and down the street a couple of times drive around the block then we switch riders and it doesn't go. We sit around chatting for a while then it it starts to work again. The only display that I used is a watt meter and I also use a cell checker. I can post another pic of the controller wires. Let me know if this is what your looking for.
 
dnmun said:
can you read any labeling on that blue plastic cube in the lower left corner? it may be a thermal breaker to protect the controller.
It doesn't look like there is any writing on it.

motomech said:
Some 36V controllers will work on 12S and some won't, but usually they just smoke.
It doesn't hurt to have an extra controller, but you don't need the 72V Infinfeon.
Leyn can custom modify a controller for you, but expect weeks to get it.
If you are sure you want an Infineon, Grin will ship you one right away. the 25 A version is probly enough for your batteries, certainly no higher than the 35A model
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/freewheels/fw8spd1132.html
I LIKE THIS CONTROLLER;
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X36v+48v+500+watt+9-FET+ebike+controller.TRS0&_nkw=36v+48v+500+watt+9-FET+ebike+controller&_sacat=0
At 19A, iot's a little under-powered for your application, but it is inexpensive, is shipped fast and best of all, for you, it has a very good LVC for 12S Lipo.

EDIT: OK, you posted the pic while I was typing, but I see it has 63uF caps.
But, it looks really generic to me and I think you could do better(But I am no expert on controllers).

I think I'm going to go with Leyn's recommendation seems like his controllers are well built and highly praised. I don't like buying stuff from ebay. I've had bad experiences with quality. And I don't see my self staying at 12S 44v for very long I'm already thinking of adding extra cell's to the mix. I'll be exploring the upper limit of the 30A controller / BMC Motor. I think the other issue is the BMC v2 torque wind motor is an AMP pig. So it's going to draw more amps requiring a beefier controller?

Regarding BMC Motors:
Current limit is set to 30A (recommended maximum current for BMC motors).
29-60V actual voltage range, works with 36V and 48V batteries.

Although a 72v controller is a little overkill it leaves room for upgrades.
 

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dnmun said:
can you read any labeling on that blue plastic cube in the lower left corner? it may be a thermal breaker to protect the controller.
Found an old post below that says at least one BMC--built-in controller, though--had that.

[url=http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=22133 said:
BMC 400-watt motor summary by mrbill[/url]"]...
The built-in controller, the non-working part, leaves less space beneath the stator to run new wiring and Halls and was quite a bit of hassle to remove. I used a heat gun and a sharp chisel to scrape and chip away the potting compound and old controller circuit board so that I had room to work underneath. I didn't remove everything, just enough to make space for new wiring. I retained the 105C thermal cutoff switch.

Also similar problem to geosped's:

Controller just stopped, but can be "rebooted"
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12463
 
What's the flat black 5-pin connector for? Do you have a LCD or is that or hall sensors?
 
d8veh said:
What's the flat black 5-pin connector for? Do you have a LCD or is that or hall sensors?
No LCD I was told that's for hall sensor. There is also another small connector single black wire. It's almost like a jumper. Not sure what that is used for but also not connected.
 
Thanks for helping out. I've just got the kit loaded on the bike a week or so ago. First couple of test rides I didn't notice anything as we just rode it around the cul-de-sac. No issues. I recharged the packs and the following mid morning (80's ATL, GA) went around the cul-de-sac and had the kids go up and down the street. When she got back she got off the bike and my son got on. That's when we noticed that the bike had no throttle even though the power indicator on the throttle switch was RED and GREEN for High. So I check the connectors to make sure the kids didn't bump into them still no problem. Then I "rebooted" unplugged the battery. Waited about a minute and then my son was able to ride around the culdesac a few times. He got bored and I got on and rode up and down the street. On the way back it cut off again in the middle of going down the street. We waited about 10 minutes just chatting and it was fine again. Voltage on the pack was around 51. By this time the voltage in the pack was around 49. So we decided to call it aday. The following day same basic scenario. Here in ATL it's in the 90's during the days. I've tested under these conditions roughly around the same temps out side either around 10-11am in the AM or 6-7pm in evenings.

What I'm going to do now is put a 10S pack 5ah. I should be drawing a few less amps should run a bit cooler. I'll see if we get the strange cut off going on. The packs I'm using now are brand new zippy all are balanced 25c. I'll use a 4S 5000mah pack and a 6S 5000 pack in series to make a 10S 5ah pack.

What kind of time-measurement device do you mean? An analog bike computer with a mileage and ride count? Nope Stop Watch? Yes. I don't have a cycle analyst computer if that's what you mean.

Live in Atlanta GA temps here are 90's in the afternoon I'd say mid 80's in the mid morning. This is not a daily commuter for us just want to get this setup to get my fat ass 250(up the steeper hills when I go mountain biking)

IMO - I think I'm just putting to much load on the controller with a 12S 10ah pack and at 250lbs I'm not a light weight more like a Clydesdale. I noticed that going up a slight upward gradient street at WOT I'm drawing about 25-26A(watt meter) which is the max this controller can handle. After about 10 minutes Batt's are cool to touch, All individual cell's are good 4.1x motor is cool to touch. Controller is pretty warm. I'll measure with a laser thermometer when my 6S pack finishes charging. Hopefully this helps. Let me know what else I can do or check. I've got some basic tools, volt meter, watt meter, cell checker.

Just got done riding again this time on 10S 5ah pack we got about 29 minutes before it stopped again. Volts were 38v 39v range all cell counts were in the 3.8 to 3.9x range. Temp is 91 right now. BMC motor cover temp on the cover read 94 temp on connector side of controller read 108 degrees. This is the side closer to the little blue thingamagig. So is this the problem? Controller has an internal temperature gauge set to 105degrees? I would assume it's even hotter in the box.

Nelson37 said:
What is your geographic location? What is the typical ambient temperature? Is it significantly cooler in the morning or evening and have you tested under these conditions?

Do you posses a time-measurement device?

Does this only happen when changing riders? Wires/connections possibly bumped?

One of the keys to diagnosing an intermittant problem is to first establish a baseline wherein the problem consistently manifests, this must be done under conditions as identical as possible, avoiding any changes to the system. Next, make simple, SINGLE CHANGES, easily reversible, to the system and evaluate their effect.

Same route, same rider, same ambient temp, use a clock and time-check the problem. Several times. Next, I would do an early-morning or late-evening ride in cooler temps to see if time interval is extended. Again, do this several times. Also, find a hill and see if a hill climb shortens the time. Once again, repeat this test. You could also move the controller for better airflow and test, repeatedly. Note that this will change wire and connector positions and possibly have a secondary effect, that's why I would do this last.

Also, when it stops, do Absolutely Nothing and just wait. No changes. Use the time-measurement device. Repeat and determine some reliability of the data for how long it takes to begin functioning again. You could also test this time interval while standing still, against pedaling unassisted with more airflow.

More than likely this is an over-heating problem, but the currently available data is insufficient to reliably make a determination.

I am a noob myself. I do computer diagnostics for a living.
 
I guess you're using that connector for halls then.

For anybody else with one like that, you can test what it's for. With a battery connected, measure the voltage on the red wire. If battery voltage, it's for a LCD. If 5v, it's for halls. It's vital that you get it right because battery voltage will wipe out your hall sensors in the motor and probably the controller too. Many of those Ananda controllers use those connectors for LCDs, the the older ones did use it for halls. The black unconnected wires are probably the speed limit wires, which must be disconnected for no limit.
 
d8veh said:
I guess you're using that connector for halls then.

For anybody else with one like that, you can test what it's for. With a battery connected, measure the voltage on the red wire. If battery voltage, it's for a LCD. If 5v, it's for halls. It's vital that you get it right because battery voltage will wipe out your hall sensors in the motor and probably the controller too. Many of those Ananda controllers use those connectors for LCDs, the the older ones did use it for halls. The black unconnected wires are probably the speed limit wires, which must be disconnected for no limit.

I have two wires coming out of my BMC hub. The white connector and black one. And yes it's and older unit. I don't have an LCD. I'm curious then the single black wire coming out of the controller that's has a small connector on it is a speed limiter? So I just unplug it? I'll give it a shot.

I ordered a 9 FET 3077 Infineon Brushless LYEN Edition Controller. Hopping this resolves my issue.
 
if that single black wire goes to the motor, there might be a thermal breaker in the motor, or a sensor that tells the controller to shut off.

But if the motor overheats in 10 min, you are running on the wrong phase combination.

Sooo tempting to wipe out all these threads, and make you start over with ONE. Lets compromise. Continue asking questions in ONE or two threads. This one will do for motor, controller, etc. Ask battery specific questions in one of your battery threads.
 
If you want to consolidate everything into one thread that's fine. I've got enough information to think it's a controller issue. So I've gone ahead and ordered one. I may need some help with determining the wiring from the Hub to the new controller. But other than that just wanted to say thanks.

dogman dan said:
if that single black wire goes to the motor, there might be a thermal breaker in the motor, or a sensor that tells the controller to shut off.

But if the motor overheats in 10 min, you are running on the wrong phase combination.

Sooo tempting to wipe out all these threads, and make you start over with ONE. Lets compromise. Continue asking questions in ONE or two threads. This one will do for motor, controller, etc. Ask battery specific questions in one of your battery threads.
 
Hard to determine all the variables with out some sort of logging device. I've ridden five times now under similar conditions and it's cut out five times. On a 10S it lasted 26minutes or so under harsher riding conditions (ran the bike longer and under more duress more hill's, longer WOT run's, more run's up and down the street) on 12S is when we notice it cuts off quicker. So either the controller cant handle the load or there is an issue with the motor.

Controller and Throttle are being swapped out tonight. Going with a 35A Lyen Controller. Lots of minor surgery to be performed so I'm knocking on wood and crossing my fingers.

Question if it's an issue with the BMC motor does anyone rebuild these? If what would a typical cost be? I'd prefer to get upgraded phase wires / composite gears. (I thought I had a V2 but I'm pretty sure now it's a V1. Wont know for sure until I pull the cassette off and pull the cover off)

Question: If it needs to be rebuilt. Can I remove the hall sensors, and get it to work with a sensorless controller? If so what's the drawback to going sensorless? I pro would be to put larger phase wires. One of the weakness in hopping these motors beyond there normal range.

Question: With upgrades would this more or less make the BMC bullet proof on 60v-72v LiPo Pack drawing 35A continuous for several minute's at a time? Not sure if I'm asking the right questions. At the end of the day. I want a reliable system that can handle the abuse of mountain biking for 4-5 mile trail with somewhat hilly terrain pulling a "clydsdale"
 
why do you continue all this speculation and refuse to go identify the presence of the thermal breaker? do you think by having multiple guesses from anyone and everyone that somehow you will understand what happened?

how hard can it be to just go look at the breaker and read the label?
 
Did you see the pictures of the thermal breaker. It's CEMENTED IN EPOXY. There is no writing on the top of it. There is nothing that can be read from it with out hacking all around it probably causing more damage. I'm not going to hack at it. That epoxy does not just pop off. I'll just use the controller as a backup. Besides it wasn't designed to do what I'm asking it to do so it's gone. Lets forget about the OLD CONTROLLER as it's OUT OF THE PICTURE NOW!
 
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