Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.

Postby CGameProgrammer » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:00 pm

I opened up my 7235 with the 150V FETs so air can pass right through as I'm riding, but they still get too hot to maintain 96V and can just about manage 72V in 80-degree weather without shutting off.
User avatar
CGameProgrammer
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Clamping phase voltages

Postby billvon » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:24 pm

After blowing out my first controller pretty quickly, I added a clamp circuit to reduce FET Vds stress, in hopes of preventing another failure. So far seems to work well. However, I am now getting massive power limiting, I think due to temperature problems. (Operating at 72 volts.) I'll have to stick a temperature sensor on the case to see if that's the problem.
Attachments
clamp.jpg
Phase voltage clamp on output cable
clamp.jpg (51.33 KiB) Viewed 1401 times
--bill von
billvon
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: san diego

Postby The7 » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:40 pm

An very good idea!
Seems that you are using 3-phase bridge rectifer circuit with an 160V 220uF Cap as the clamping circuit.


What is the diode's rating?
Did you know the normal dc voltage appearing on the Cap?

Where do you connect the red and black wires from the Cap to?
User avatar
The7
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:07 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby The7 » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:14 pm

billvon wrote: However, I am now getting massive power limiting, I think due to temperature problems. (Operating at 72 volts.) .


Could you explain a bit more detail?
Also where are the red and black connected to?
User avatar
The7
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:07 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby billvon » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:30 pm

The7 wrote:
billvon wrote: However, I am now getting massive power limiting, I think due to temperature problems. (Operating at 72 volts.) .


Could you explain a bit more detail?
Also where are the red and black connected to?


Diode is STTH4R02RL, 200 volt 4 amp ultrafast diode. The speed is what I was looking for; the body diode of the FET can handle the bulk current. I just wanted to trim down the peaks caused by the flyback voltages.

Red and black go to the + and ground power buses on the controller board, as near the FETs as possible. I probably don't need that big cap, a ceramic would probably work just as well.

Power limiting - I will get about 5 minutes of operation at 500-800 watts, then it will fade rapidly to under 100 watts. I'll let it coast for a few moments and will get power back. It's annoying. I am guessing it's a thermal issue.
--bill von
billvon
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: san diego

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby The7 » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:30 pm

billvon wrote:[quote="
Red and black go to the + and ground power buses on the controller board, as near the FETs as possible. I probably don't need that big cap, a ceramic would probably work just as well.


Does the black go to the battey ground before the SHUNT or after the SHUNT?
User avatar
The7
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:07 pm
Location: Vancouver

Postby fechter » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:48 pm

Do the diodes or capacitor get hot when it goes weak?
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 10101
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby billvon » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:27 pm

The7 wrote:Does the black go to the battey ground before the SHUNT or after the SHUNT?


Between the shunt and the FETs. Basically the + and - go to the power rails connected to the FETs (since that's what I'm trying to protect)
--bill von
billvon
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: san diego

Help with Replacing fets in 40amp 72v crystalite controller.

Postby steveo » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:13 pm

could i do this fet replacement mod to the 40 amp version of this controller?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=764

i'd like to be running 100v+

thanks
Steve :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

Project Deathtrap

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46755

2002 Honda Insight Mk1 hybrid/Gridcharger/Mima & FAS/obd2c&c gauge/50s2p a123 40ah battery/100mpg+ /PP50 bms

For sale/barter thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44316&p=645130#p645130

steveos repairs thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27170
User avatar
steveo
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Re: Help with Replacing fets in 40amp 72v crystalite control

Postby fechter » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:05 pm

steveo wrote:could i do this fet replacement mod to the 40 amp version of this controller?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=764

i'd like to be running 100v+

thanks
Steve :lol:


Sure. There's not much difference between the 40 amp and the 35 amp version. The new ones with six 4310's are unknown. With 4110's, you can safely run 100v, but some have pushed a few volts higher without smoke.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 10101
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

40amp 72v fet replacement...

Postby steveo » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:18 am

which fets would be best? at 100v 4110's as per what your saying? i haven't opened my controller yet .. but how many would i be needing?

if i wanted to lets say go all out and put 150v.. which fets would i be needing .. has there been may heat problem pushing the controller that far....

p.s. sorry for all the questions ..

here is my bike build
http://youtube.com/watch?v=l0j9PlsqZ20

thanks
Steve
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

Project Deathtrap

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46755

2002 Honda Insight Mk1 hybrid/Gridcharger/Mima & FAS/obd2c&c gauge/50s2p a123 40ah battery/100mpg+ /PP50 bms

For sale/barter thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44316&p=645130#p645130

steveos repairs thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27170
User avatar
steveo
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Postby BiGH » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:14 am

for 100+ volts i would suggest what Antonio (on these forums) has used - FDP2532 rated at 150V 79A.

edit: you will also have to change the capacitors as they most likely are only rated for 100v also.

Also please note that we're starting to get into very dangerous voltages. at 48v 30a you can feel the voltage quite noticibly if you touch the phase wires.

at 150v etc would extremely dangerous - i'd suggest upgrading all connectors too to something with no open exposure of metal (trailer plugs are a no-no).


Take Care,
Haydon
Bike / Motor: Electric specalized rock hopper with Crystalyte 504 / 26"
Batt: Yesa 72v (36v*2) (getting 6.7ah) LiFEPO4 in a Topeak bag. OR 1x eMTB 48v 20ah pack (straps to frame) -depending on range requirements.
Controller: Unmodified 48a digital with 4110 Fets
Current Prob: Bike is in parts getting painted / drying / testing replacement BMS
Trail of Dead Parts:Avanti Frame, 408 motor *melted*, 35a controller - i broke by trying to mod it 2nd controller - blew it up.
My Ride
User avatar
BiGH
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:58 am
Location: CBD - Melbourne

Re: 40amp 72v fet replacement...

Postby xyster » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:16 am

steveo wrote:which fets would be best? at 100v 4110's as per what your saying? i haven't opened my controller yet .. but how many would i be needing?

if i wanted to lets say go all out and put 150v.. which fets would i be needing .. has there been may heat problem pushing the controller that far....


Lowell here has reported his bicycle is difficult to keep under control at 8000 watts -- the front wheel wheelies too easily. Sounds like the limit of useable power for a typical bicycle is around 5-7 kw, which can be achieved at a safer 90-100 volts with the better 100v IRFB 4110s. There have been overheating problems with the 150v. The original current limit shouldn't be exceeded with those FETs, whereas the current limit with the 4110s can be increased to 80-100 amps. So you'll get much more, and more efficient power with the 4110s at a higher current limit.
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010
User avatar
xyster
1.21 GW
1.21 GW
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:39 pm
Location: Visualize Rural Sheep

Postby fechter » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:48 am

The best 150v rated FETs have about 4 times more on resistance than the 100v IRFB4110. At 40 amps, the heat dissipation will be a problem. It could work with additional heat sinking and possibly a fan, but I wouldn't recommend it.

The 'typical' controller has 12 FETs, and the newer model, as well as the 20 amp version have 6.

If you read the first few pages of this thread, you can see what it looks like.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 10101
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Postby steveo » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:41 am

I think i will end up staying on the safe side @ 100v using the 100v IRFB4110 fets; Will i have to change capacitors with those fets or can i use the originals?


p.s. thanks for all the quick responses guys; this forum is awesome for diy info 8)
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

Project Deathtrap

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46755

2002 Honda Insight Mk1 hybrid/Gridcharger/Mima & FAS/obd2c&c gauge/50s2p a123 40ah battery/100mpg+ /PP50 bms

For sale/barter thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44316&p=645130#p645130

steveos repairs thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27170
User avatar
steveo
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby steveo » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:43 am

billvon wrote:After blowing out my first controller pretty quickly, I added a clamp circuit to reduce FET Vds stress, in hopes of preventing another failure. So far seems to work well. However, I am now getting massive power limiting, I think due to temperature problems. (Operating at 72 volts.) I'll have to stick a temperature sensor on the case to see if that's the problem.


what is that potentiometer i believe its hooked up to the cycle analyst port if i'm correct; i'm taking a long shot but it that the restrict the power to the controller? what potentiometer are you using?
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

Project Deathtrap

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46755

2002 Honda Insight Mk1 hybrid/Gridcharger/Mima & FAS/obd2c&c gauge/50s2p a123 40ah battery/100mpg+ /PP50 bms

For sale/barter thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44316&p=645130#p645130

steveos repairs thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27170
User avatar
steveo
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Postby fechter » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:20 am

steveo wrote:I think i will end up staying on the safe side @ 100v using the 100v IRFB4110 fets; Will i have to change capacitors with those fets or can i use the originals?


p.s. thanks for all the quick responses guys; this forum is awesome for diy info 8)


It depends on which ones are in the controller to start with. This seems to vary quite a bit. Most of the ones I've worked on had 160v caps, so they did not need to be changed. It wouldn't hurt to upgrade the caps to higher quality ones, but space inside is limited.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 10101
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby billvon » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:00 pm

steveo wrote:what is that potentiometer i believe its hooked up to the cycle analyst port


That's the throttle port. It just sets a (low) speed so the motor runs continuously.
--bill von
billvon
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: san diego

Postby steveo » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:43 pm

fechter wrote:
steveo wrote:I think i will end up staying on the safe side @ 100v using the 100v IRFB4110 fets; Will i have to change capacitors with those fets or can i use the originals?


p.s. thanks for all the quick responses guys; this forum is awesome for diy info 8)


It depends on which ones are in the controller to start with. This seems to vary quite a bit. Most of the ones I've worked on had 160v caps, so they did not need to be changed. It wouldn't hurt to upgrade the caps to higher quality ones, but space inside is limited.


i may open up the controller on the weekend; i'll take a trip to the local electronics shop to check if they have the fets before i get started :P..

i think i should upgrade my motor before even considering this modification; i don't think my motor is very efficent; i'm running a 250watt motor; my 7.5ah cells start to crap out after 10km's of travels; i did 19kms in total on one charge.. does that sound very inefficent too you?..

thanks
Steve
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

Project Deathtrap

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46755

2002 Honda Insight Mk1 hybrid/Gridcharger/Mima & FAS/obd2c&c gauge/50s2p a123 40ah battery/100mpg+ /PP50 bms

For sale/barter thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44316&p=645130#p645130

steveos repairs thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27170
User avatar
steveo
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby steveo » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:46 pm

billvon wrote:
steveo wrote:what is that potentiometer i believe its hooked up to the cycle analyst port


That's the throttle port. It just sets a (low) speed so the motor runs continuously.


thanks for clarifying.. i though it was used to restrict power to the hub motor .. hmm i wonder if there is such a mod without having to purchase the cycle analyst ..
http://www.youtube.com/user/trdfreak03

Project Deathtrap

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46755

2002 Honda Insight Mk1 hybrid/Gridcharger/Mima & FAS/obd2c&c gauge/50s2p a123 40ah battery/100mpg+ /PP50 bms

For sale/barter thread

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44316&p=645130#p645130

steveos repairs thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27170
User avatar
steveo
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Woodbridge, Ontario

Re: Clamping phase voltages

Postby fechter » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:12 am

steveo wrote:
thanks for clarifying.. i though it was used to restrict power to the hub motor .. hmm i wonder if there is such a mod without having to purchase the cycle analyst ..


Yes, it's described earlier in this thread. By adding a pot and a couple of resistors, you can make the current limit adjustable. This will set the maximum power you can get.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 10101
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

MY NEW SET OF CONTROLLERS waiting for IRFB4110

Postby nemo » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:42 pm

Some time ago I showed here my first clone of the controller. Since then my friend burned his 72V/35A controller and I offered to maker him a new one.I took his burned one in exchange. Good swap? Well, I really felt bad that soon after making him the best scooter (with 40 A123...) the controller went.
Here is the picture of the new boards.

Other news:
IRFB4110 for UK
I finally got to call IRTronix and they are sold out on IRFB4110 now.
They will restock at the end of November .
I already ordered 150 with my credit card and the best price they gave me was 2.94. Normally $3.19 dollars.
With shipping to the UK the price will be about $500.
I'll also have to pay import tax/vat here in England (don't know how much it is ... lets say 20%).
Then 3% of total price extra for the credit card usage and some for bank currency change.
To sum up 300 pounds will cover about 150 mosfets.
I'll be re-selling them for 2 pounds each here in the UK so we can all have the chance to mod our controllers.
I want 48 fets, another 30 and 30 are already reserved for others who asked me some time ago.
42 are still available.
Let me know if You are interested in buying some. I might ever order more, if needed.
Thank You Pavel Nemo
Attachments
cloned controllers 2.JPG
Each of them took me at least 6 hours, including making(printing,etching, drilling) PCB
cloned controllers 2.JPG (59.26 KiB) Viewed 1918 times
User avatar
nemo
10 W
10 W
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:50 am
Location: UK

Postby BiGH » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:52 pm

thats cool.

One thing i would be interested in is pre-modified 4110 controllers with adjustable (up to say 60-80amp) limits.

I think that would be rather cool.:)
Bike / Motor: Electric specalized rock hopper with Crystalyte 504 / 26"
Batt: Yesa 72v (36v*2) (getting 6.7ah) LiFEPO4 in a Topeak bag. OR 1x eMTB 48v 20ah pack (straps to frame) -depending on range requirements.
Controller: Unmodified 48a digital with 4110 Fets
Current Prob: Bike is in parts getting painted / drying / testing replacement BMS
Trail of Dead Parts:Avanti Frame, 408 motor *melted*, 35a controller - i broke by trying to mod it 2nd controller - blew it up.
My Ride
User avatar
BiGH
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1183
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:58 am
Location: CBD - Melbourne

Postby fechter » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:05 am

That is cool. Do you have a schematic? If so, are you willing to share it? There are sections of the controller I never got around to reverse engineering.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 10101
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Postby nemo » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:39 am

Sorry, but I don't have schematics yet. Only BRD that I made in eagle 4.11.
It would be possible to draw the schematics from the BRD but it would take a long time and I'm too busy to do it right now.
Also, since I'm not a pro , BRD is good enough for me , but may not be the best for automatic brd. making.
But it is close to the original, even mosfets fits on the original alu cooling plate exactly. So the size/drilling etc. is the same.
Controller can fit in 4cmx6cmx18cm alu tube.
The total weight(including 30cm of wires) is only 500g instead of 1050g of the original controller. So you save 550g!
I also solder 3x 2.5mm3 coper wires on each mosfet bus as seen on the photo.And also where 3 phases are entering the PCB.
This coper weights over 30g! The clean PCB weights only about 25g!

On the board there are about 80 smd resistors, 16 diodes , most in smd, 10 transistors,12 mosfets and capacitors. It really takes a lot of time to build the controller and is definitely NOT cost efective (doing it at home).
Only perhaps if you like the chalenge to have your own controller as I do.
User avatar
nemo
10 W
10 W
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:50 am
Location: UK

PreviousNext

Return to E-Bike Technical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 999zip999, Google [Bot] and 8 guests