Crystalyte Controllers - Repair and Modification information

[Jozzer]

Mark can and will get ahold of any info you need regarding software and chip info. He already had a shout at them for rubbing off the numbers

[deecanio]

Hi Guys,

tried to wire up again today but alas i'm getting a big fat nothing from my bike
im going to check what i can but if you guys have any tests i can try post and ill read then try it.........
im not sure whats going on as i really thought i'd plug it in and be away today - i have to admit though in my rush i fookin dropped it it fell to the deck from a foot or so and i thought to myself if it doesnt work now im gonna look a right twat.
anyway confession over - help!!!!


cheers


D

[Jozzer]

Andy, check that those halls wires are making proper contact, more than half the time that plug doesnt mate properly. Try and push the pins further in with a small screwdriver, or better yet, take off the connectors and solder it (or even twist them and tape them carefully for a test).

[fechter]

Solder them. Don't screw around with dodgy hall connectors.


It would be cool if the controller had 3 led indicators for the hall signals. This would not be hard to add.

[deecanio]

hi guys,

yeh i thought the mini dins might be pants but i took all the connectors off and simply have the pins connected into each other?
i've tried all the phase connections too - im starting to think i broke it but i cant believe a small drop would kill it? ive hit harder bumps than that!!
oooh i oculd try a new throttle?
i could try the xlyte controller but id have to stip back the hall cable to see the colours as i didn't write them down?

Cheers


D

[deecanio]

went to disconnect the throttle and two cables popped out of their connector on the controller side , ok i'll fix that then try the new throttle



D

[Jozzer]

Deec, unless you mean you have each individual pin out and connected, it still is fussy. If you still have the 5 pins in the little black holder, find the back of each pin and give it a nudge down.
If you really mean that you have stripped all 5 bits of metal out, then, I guess its not that:(

[Drunkskunk]

Anyone have any advice for adding the direct plugin connector to a crystalyte controller?

Justin was kind enough to sell me the 6 pin connector with my Cycle Analyst so I could add ity to my dual speed controller, but the picture of the 20A controller from his website isn't the same version as the one in my dualspeed.I can probably figure it out, but I'm second guessing my self. has anyone tried this before, or have any advise on wiring into the Clyte 72v20a controller?

[deecanio]

hi all,

Thanks to Jozzer's troubleshooting over the phone (cheers mate) we did manage to get the controller running last night yayyyyyyyyyy!!!!!
ok lots of cabling and tidying to be done today but i'm hoping to get out later and have just a road ride to see what 72v can do!!!
will check in later and hopefully, hopefully the DC1 will break 30mph today!!!


cheers


D

[nemo]

I finally received 150pcs. IRFB4110. 60 went to some of you who wrote me earlier, 30 I keep for myself, rest is still for sale here in the UK.
The price is £2.3 each mosfet plus postage (first class £1.5 or better... special next day delivery insured up to £500 for £4.30)

Get the best 100V mosfet on the planet fast ! Last 60 available!
Why I ordered 150 and selling them?
The aim was to get them to UK and share the postage/vat/ import tax when getting them from the USA.

[bobmcree]

i have been replacing the stock 4710 fets with 4110s in 35/40 amp speed controls and it is then possible to double the current limit to 80A with these fets if you use it judiciously. it is important to remember that very high currents can overheat the motor and depolarize the magnets, causing permanent damage.

i would not recommend raising the 40A limit for 4xx crystalytes but gary goodrum seems to be having fun with his 5xx on speed controls i modified with 4110s and modified current sense shunts.

i have been paying $2.50 US for them in 100 pc qty so the price offered seems quite reasonable. i advise anyone who has the mechanical aptitude to do the swap put a set of these fets in your controller if you want to do wheelies and go 40 mph.

[deecanio]

Hi All,

will move the puma controller info into my own thread as this is the sticky for xlyte controllers?
by the way, bob - fantastic work on the controller gary was using the results were scarily impressive !!! i think he should swap the kit to a beefier bike as soon as possible also


cheers

D

[GGoodrum]

Actually, I just installed the second controller that Bob modified for me, in my bigger, 26" Townie bike, which is much beefier than the Mariner folding bike, and which has big fat tires. The controller in the smaller bike is going to get Richard's variable current limit mod, so I can tame the "current" limit of about 87A-88A, down to a more reasonable 60A, or so, which at 66V, will still yield of fairly spirited performance. I should, however, be able to come back from ride, and be able to let go of the seat a lot sooner.

-- Gary

[bobmcree]

i'm afraid i went a bit overboard on modifying the current limit on gary's controller. i measured the voltage drop across the shunt, and added solder until the drop was 1/3 lower, expecting that would result in changing the 40A limit to 60A. The way the current limiting is done on our controllers it turns out there is quite a bit of nonlinearity, and the change i made was too drastic.

i offered to adjust it back down, but gary said he could not go back now

on the 35/40/50a controllers the current measuring shunt is 4 parallel wires about a half inch long, made of fairly high resistance wire so that they are usually about a milliohm. i soldered two of the conductors together for their whole length to get the change in gary's controllers, so if you were to solder two of them together for less than the full length it might be closer to the 60A target i was shooting for. i told gary he could remove some of the solder to reduce the current limit if he wants to later.

the 4110 fets should be able to handle 80-90A easily, but i'm not so sure about the traces on the pcb

[billvon]

Solder them. Don't screw around with dodgy hall connectors.

I've been replacing them with 9 pin DSub connectors. More rugged and widely available. (You only need 5 of the 9 pins.)

[nemo]

Hi everybody,
As You probably know I made couple of cloned, working controllers. Now I'm thinking about drawing schematics. Recently one of my controllers blew. On some capacitors 16V higher voltage destroyed them, I think, fets are ok.
I need to understand more so I can identify the problematic part .
When I draw schematics( give me 2 weeks) I'll welcome any comments.
First question is; What is this diode? I suspect that my substitude for it was not the right one. (1n4148) Any ideas? Zenner? I don't have the orig. controller right now to measure anything . Thanks for your help!

Update to IRFB4110 for UK.: Last 15 left! (out of 120 for sale! here)

[fechter]

That's a 16v zener. Its the reference for the voltage regulator.

[nemo]

That's a 16v zener. Its the reference for the voltage regulator.

Thank You, that explains a failure on 36V and not on 24V then!
A 5v reg. was burned and also some caps.!

[bobmcree]

That's a 16v zener. Its the reference for the voltage regulator.

Thank You, that explains a failure on 36V and not on 24V then!
A 5v reg. was burned and also some caps.!

the zener and the power transistor next to it produce the 14.4v that runs all the logic chips and op amps and the 78L05 that powers the throttle.

i have seen a unit where the power transistor shorted, applying battery voltage to the 14.4v bus. it blew every chip, some it blew all the way off the board, and popped all the electrolytics.

when i work on one now the very first thing i do is connect it to 24v limited to 0.5A and make sure the 14.4v regulator is working.

[rkosiorek]

16V zener? i think that is a little high. i measured the voltage across this zener on a couple of working controllers. and it was either 12V or 13V.

almost all of the Crystalyte brand controllers including the brushless 20A (start immediate and pedal first), brushless 40A and brushed 35A use the same identical low voltage supply. all of these have the zener with the MJE13005 transistor wired as a "amplified zener" regulator.

when repairng controllers i have been replacing the diode with 1N4742A or 1N4743A (12V or 13V 5% zeners.)

have i been using the wrong parts? or is this non-critical? the next higher zener would be 15V (1N4744A), add the 0.6v of the base emitter junction of the transistor would be a regulated voltage of 15.6V.

remeber also that this voltage is the one that is fed to the motors Hall sensors in the "start immediate" controllers.

rick

[bobmcree]

i have worked on dozens of these controllers and i have never seen the regulated voltage above 15V, so a 16v zener is too high. I use a 1N5350 13V zener, 27 cents at Mouser, p/n 863-1N5350BG

the ST13005A transistor has a Vbe of 1.2V at 200 ma. which is about where it runs, so the 13V zener is a better choice.

[rkosiorek]

usually when i recieve a controller where i measure above 16V on the hall sensor connector (connected directly to the zener regulated supply.) i simulaneously recieve a motor with at least one blown hall sensor.

i just replace the zener in all such cases. i don't know exactly what hall sensors are stock in the motor but the ones i use to replace them are rated for 24V max and i have few troubles afterwards.

rick

[bobmcree]

yep, i've seen that also. i use the honeywell SS41 Hall sensors for replacement and they are good to 24v. i think some of the chinese motors and throttles i have seen use a counterfeit version of this part that can barely take 15v.

[fechter]

I measured 16v across the one in my controller when it was powered up. You lose about a volt in the transistor.

Perhaps they figured out that was too high at some point and changed the value of it.

The feed to the hall sensors is through a resistor, so the actual voltage at the sensors drops when they are connected. Still, if the supplied voltage is really close to the failure point of the sensors, that could explain a lot of failures.

If the zener goes open or the transistor shorts, it would be real ugly for the rest of the controller.

[bobmcree]

I measured 16v across the one in my controller when it was powered up. You lose about a volt in the transistor.

Perhaps they figured out that was too high at some point and changed the value of it.

The feed to the hall sensors is through a resistor, so the actual voltage at the sensors drops when they are connected. Still, if the supplied voltage is really close to the failure point of the sensors, that could explain a lot of failures.

If the zener goes open or the transistor shorts, it would be real ugly for the rest of the controller.

i think the voltage was higher in some older units, it is really not very critical, but a volt or two lower might be better. i have seen the pass transistor short and apply 72v to the 15v bus. it blew some of the chips right off the board and exploded the electrolytics. too exciting!

the critical circuit elements in the current limiter and pwm section are driven from a 5v reference on the pwm chip, and there is a separate 78L05 for the throttle power, so the voltage could probably be anywhere from 12 to 15v and it would be fine.