Wilderness Energy Bike Electrified kit stopped working

Hi,
After recently buying a used Wilderness Energy Bike Electrified kit, I set it up and got it working briefly, but now it's not working. I'm using new batteries (36V, 9AH, SLA). I've tested them with a multimeter and they are fine. (I've tested the wiring up to the controller, and it all checks out at around 38V. From the controller to the hub motor I don't see how exactly to check the voltage.) I've charged them up and tried running the motor off AC, still not working. The LEDs on the throttle light up, showing power and full battery. Yet when I push down on the throttle it doesn't rotate the motor.

For a little while I had the motor running, but when I adjusted the batteries to strap them together and onto the rack, after reconnecting I've had trouble getting the motor to run. I've tried substituting practically all the parts with the same parts from another kit of the same model, with similar results. I've tried disconnecting and reconnecting all the wires, and it's still not running.

Can you suggest what I should do next, or what could be the problem?

Would any additional info help?

Thank you!

Go back to the connector between the throttle cable and the controller. Make sure that none of the pins are pushed back into the housing and that everything is clean and tight. You should be able to probe the back side of the connector with your volt meter. First with battery disconnected and meter set to ohms check continuity through the connector on each pin. Next with power on and front wheel off the ground look for (0v battery neg) (~+38v battery pos) (~+5v throttle supply) (0 to ~+5 varying with throttle position. signal)
I just remembered that Wilderness Energy sold those kits with brushed and brushless motors. Do you have three wires entering the hub or just two? If you have the brushed motor with only two wires the throttle voltages may not be the same as I described.

eaglegamma said:

I'm using new batteries (36V, 9AH, SLA). I've tested them with a multimeter and they are fine. (I've tested the wiring up to the controller, and it all checks out at around 38V.

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36v fully charged should be about 41v. If you get 41v at the batteries but not elsewhere, you have a poor connection between the batteries and the elsewhere, and voltage drops too low for it to work as soon as you hit the throttle.

If it's 38v at the batteries after a full charge, you might check each of the individual ones and see which one is not charging fully (it could be preventing the system from working).

From the controller to the hub motor I don't see how exactly to check the voltage.

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The voltage changes as the throttle tells the controller what to do, and the load on the motor changes, and the controller does current limiting. There won't be any voltage until the controller tries to make the motor do something, and then it will be pulses of battery-level voltage, averaging to some lower voltage depending on the above conditions.

tried running the motor off AC,

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? Off what AC? And how was it connected? If you mean you plugged it into the wall, this could damage the motor depending on what kind it is and how it was hooked up.

If you mean you tried running the motor while the charger was plugged in, well, even if the batteries *were* the problem, it still may not work becuase the charger can't output as much current as teh batteries, so it may shutdown under the motor's load.

If you mean something else, you'll have to specify.

The LEDs on the throttle light up, showing power and full battery. Yet when I push down on the throttle it doesn't rotate the motor.

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Do the LEDs change at all when you do that? Often they'll flicker or even have the "full" one go out when throttling up from a stop, then come back to normal right afterward.

For a little while I had the motor running, but when I adjusted the batteries to strap them together and onto the rack, after reconnecting I've had trouble getting the motor to run.

Click to expand...

If the only thing you moved was teh batteries and battery wiring, then the problem is almost certainly there.

I've tried substituting practically all the parts with the same parts from another kit of the same model, with similar results.

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Is the other kit working? If so, is it working with different batteries, or the same set? If it's different ones, does this kit work with those batteries?

Assuming you have the brushless kit, what do the led's on the controller do? Any smell from the controller?

Its not the switch on the controller, since the throttle does light up. I'd look very hard at the wires and the plug between the controller and motor.

The single most common cause of these things not working is a bad connection on a white plug with the small wires. the plug contact backs out of the housing when you plug it in. Tug on each wire gently, and see if they stay in the housings. if not, bend the tab on the contact so they click in and stay there.

Thank you for all the comments!

I'll check the throttle connector. That or the throttle itself may be the problem.

There are three power wires from the controller to the motor.

Poor wiring from the batteries is definitely another possibility. I've replaced the two wires between batteries (I have three 12V batteries in series). The wires connecting the batteries with the charger and motor seem hard to find anywhere, would it be possible to replace those somehow?

I'll look into the batteries again, although they're fresh from the store so I think they should work fine.

Regarding AC, I've tried running with the charger connected, both with and without the batteries also connected. The charger connects a power outlet to both the batteries and the motor. I've had the motor spinning off the charger and off batteries, although it's not spinning now.

The LEDs don't seem to change regardless of whether I throttle. The Power and Full lights both go on and stay on, while the Low light stays off.

The other kit had basically the same behavior, it worked sporadically, then stopped working. On the other throttle the LEDs don't go on, although it could still spin the motor before.

I haven't noticed any smell from the controller. It did get quite warm, which I thought could be unusual, although the weather's been very hot here so I'm not sure whether that's an issue.

As of now it seems like it's probably the battery wiring, the throttle wiring, or the throttle...

With 3 power wires to the motor, that's a brushless type. There are probably also 5 thin wires to the motor.

Since there's no voltage drop on the LEDs happening as you throttle up, then it's more likely to be the throttle, throttle connection to controller, or controller itself, than batteries.

Another possibility is if you have "ebrake" levers, which turn off the motor as you brake, then a short in their wiring or mechanical problem in the switches could also cause the problem you see. If they are two-wire levers, then measure with a multimeter on continuity beeper, with power disconnected from the controller. You should only get a beep when the lever is pulled. If you get a beep otherwise, try unplugging the levers from the controller and retest the throttle/motor with power to the controller.


Since the other kit doesnt' work either, then swapping parts from it only makes troubleshooting harder. Until you know which parts are working you're better off testing with only the parts from one kit at a time. After you know what works and what doesnt, then swapping parts (that are marked so you don't lose track of which is which) is a viable troubleshooting method.

Thank you.
Yes, also has five smaller wires.
I'm continuing to test…

The brake switch could do it.

You can measure the voltage (against battery negative) of the wires going to the throttle to check it. One should be zero (ground), one should be around 5v steady with controller on, and one should vary with throttle movement. There may be other wires related to the battery indicator if that's in the throttle.

Does the controller have a label that says 48v ? And low voltage protect ( or LVC low voltage control ) around 41 to 42 volts ?

I don't see any such 48V label on the controller...

Most of that WE stuff has a 36v lvc. And 36v setting for throttle lights.

No led on the controller box? If not, its not the stuff I'm familiar with. The one that does not light up the throttle may have a broken switch on the controller.

My Wilderness Kits were sensorless. If, as you say, it has 5 smaller wires it is a sensored motor and may not be the original from the kit. The sensorless controller should still make it run but will require a bit of rotation to learn the motor configuration. Try spinning the wheel while applying some throttle.
My WE kits did not come with ebrakes so I did not consider that problem but a stuck brake switch would cause the problem.
The switch on the controller had to be replaced twice. The second time I ran wires to the handle bars and mounted a better switch where I could reach it.

OK!

Thank you all again for the impressive comments and questions.

After testing and trying various configurations, I wound up finding a mix-and-match from the different kits that miraculously works. It includes the throttle without working LEDs, so I don't get those indicators, but at least for now it does spin. I went out for a test ride, and within a few minutes I got a flat on my first electric bicycle.

At low speeds, the motor is make some grinding sounds, although it does run.

I'm not entirely sure where the problem was, so it will possibly be flaky. I'll continue to ride it (after repairing the flat), and see how things go.

By the way, is it OK to lubricate the axle within the motor hub, or will that risk damaging the electrical components?

No need to lubricate the hub, its bearings are sealed.

The grinding noise is usually the thing running on only two of the three phases. So just because it runs, does not mean its running right.

If it happens to be running in sensorless mode, it can stutter ( the grinding) on start up. If it does not do that if you roll slightly forward as you start, you have a motor running fine, but in sensorless mode.

At slow speed under load, the motor will make some noise, but not a lot. Typically its described as a grunting sound, not a grinding.

So you might be ok, or not, depending on what the hell that noise is, how loud it is, and how the motor runs when you hear it.

I'm fairly confident that the parts are originals from different versions of the kit, as the company logos are on most parts, and the original owners who sold them to me don't seem likely to have replaced many core parts.
Spinning the wheel does seem to help the motor. Maybe the lower power requirement makes it easier on the motor? I've noticed that sometimes if I push the motor to its max it cuts out, and when I let go then repush the throttle it kicks back in.
I'm now recharging the batteries. The setup still seems iffy, hopefully a few spins well help iron things out...

So after charging, it's still running but seems quite slow, like it's not working right. The wheel spins, but it's hardly enough to notice the difference while riding, especially uphill, and doesn't seem like the previous ride. Does that sound like any particular wiring problem?

It sounds like one of the phases is not working or the phase/hall combination is not right.

Is there any way to fix that?

Double check all the connections from the motor to the controller. Either a wire isn't making contact or they aren't connected to the right ones. Normally the colors match but in some cases they may need to be switched around, especially if the controller is not the original

There are some topics on the forum describing how to check this.

Checked the wiring, still running slow. Anything to check inside the hub, if those are accessible?

There is a flow chart that has helped me to determine the best hall - phase wiring combination https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Determining_the_Wiring_for_a_Brushless_Motor

Before tearing into the motor, I'd try measuring the hall signals. Put a volt meter from battery ground to each of the hall signal wires at the connector going from the motor to the controller. With the power turned on, but no throttle, each hall signal should toggle between near zero and near 5v as you slowly turn the wheel by hand.

Another test would be to measure resistance between every combination of phase wires. They should all measure near zero ohms.

I'd be more inclined to take apart the controller and look for signs of obvious damage, heat, etc.

It could also just be a bad connection on a halls wire, at the plug, damaged at the axle, cut anywhere along the wire.

At this point, spending 15 bucks or so on a motor,controller, throttle tester would make your troubleshoot a lot easier. (to test controller especially) It is easy to test the motor halls with a simple voltmeter though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-brushless-Motor-Controller-Tester-For-24V-36V-48V-60V-Electro-Car-Scooter-/131143747188?hash=item1e88c6c674:g:XywAAOxyhXRTJ~uM

You can get a motor to run on just two of the three phases, if you apply throttle while its rolling. It will feel very weak, like what you have going on. I agree, its likely a halls problem somewhere.