Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Get all your technical information about electric bikes here.
User avatar
wturber
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Dec 31, 2017 3:54 pm

With such a low melting temperature, you'd want to make sure that the heatsink temp doesn't exceed the metal's melting point. I know that CPU heatsink temps on my workstations get to 80c at times. Shoot, just sitting outside in direct sunlight in AZ might cause that stuff to melt. I'd think you'd want a low melt metal that melts somewhere north of boiling water.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

LewTwo
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1036
Joined: Apr 08, 2014 4:46 pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by LewTwo » Jan 01, 2018 2:13 am

wturber wrote:
Dec 31, 2017 3:54 pm
With such a low melting temperature, you'd want to make sure that the heatsink temp doesn't exceed the metal's melting point. I know that CPU heatsink temps on my workstations get to 80c at times. Shoot, just sitting outside in direct sunlight in AZ might cause that stuff to melt. I'd think you'd want a low melt metal that melts somewhere north of boiling water.
During video encoding I have seen CPU temperatures spike all the way to 100 degrees celsius. They have some higher temperature metals available (281 fahrenheit - 138 celsius) which is still in the range of a kitchen stove or toaster oven. However I was thinking if it gets that hot then it is getting TOO hot. The idea is to transfer the heat to the bicycle frame which is the same frame you are gripping with your hands .... :cry:

You could also use the casting as a 'plug' to make a mold and do a proper casting in pot metal, lead, bronze, aluminum or something else but the real idea was an alternative for folks that might not be able to conveniently melt those higher temperature metals (there are people who live in dormitories, apartments, etc.).

FYI:
Having lived in Tucson, I have actually seen someone fry an egg on a dark metal plate sitting out it the sun. In Houston in the summer I used to always put a white terry towel over my parked motorcycle seat because if I did not I could not sit on it when I came back.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

User avatar
wturber
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by wturber » Jan 01, 2018 12:26 pm

LewTwo wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 2:13 am
During video encoding I have seen CPU temperatures spike all the way to 100 degrees celsius. They have some higher temperature metals available (281 fahrenheit - 138 celsius) which is still in the range of a kitchen stove or toaster oven. However I was thinking if it gets that hot then it is getting TOO hot. The idea is to transfer the heat to the bicycle frame which is the same frame you are gripping with your hands .... :cry:
By the time the heat gets to the frame, the temperature will have dropped and will continue to drop as it spreads into the frame. You just don't want the metal to melt at its contact point with the base of the Phaserunner. And I'd want a margin of safety as well.

All that said, I personally think that a decent aluminum heatsink with good airflow would make more sense in most situations.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

User avatar
docnjoj
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 5818
Joined: Sep 29, 2007 5:26 pm
Location: Fairhope AL

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by docnjoj » Jan 03, 2018 11:34 am

I'm watching this discussion carefully since I have removed the fan from my Wangdd22 booster and will mount it on the trike as soon as temperatures rise. I am hoping to avoid the fan as it is in a bad spot to mount the heatsink correctly against the frame.
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house

Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear Cute 100H going on: Whoops, Cute wheel broke but I fixed it.
Sun USX delta trike EbikeKit small geared front wheel sort of front suspension for wife

Agniusm/A123 AMP 20 36 volts on the Steini has been taken off.
2x16000 Multisport from HK now gone as they died after 2 years
New Luna 10S bottle battery 13.6AH now on mine
Relatively New 10S4Px2 for wife's bike giving 20ah @ 40 volts home made Panasonic from Tumich. BMS's rule.

minimum
1 W
1 W
Posts: 56
Joined: Nov 10, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by minimum » Jan 03, 2018 1:56 pm

Amec Thermalsol makes really "cool" flat heat pipes, originally intended for LED lights. They are really flat (from 1,2 up to 2,5mm), quite easily bendable and have ridiculously low Rth (thermal resistance).
Farnell used to carry these for decent price but they seem to have discontinued and now are selling for ridiculous sum what's left of stock.
Search of part number reveals quite many still offering at far more reasonable price.

User avatar
MrDude_1
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1034
Joined: Aug 17, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 03, 2018 2:46 pm

you guys are really overthinking this.
if you run the phaserunner to the point that it needs such a big heatsink, it will eventually fail from its inability to shed the heat to the outer heatsink over time... its a tiny 6fet controller.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

thunderstorm80
100 W
100 W
Posts: 294
Joined: Mar 29, 2016 5:54 am

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by thunderstorm80 » Jan 04, 2018 5:48 am

MrDude_1 wrote:
Jan 03, 2018 2:46 pm
you guys are really overthinking this.
if you run the phaserunner to the point that it needs such a big heatsink, it will eventually fail from its inability to shed the heat to the outer heatsink over time... its a tiny 6fet controller.
The PR has a very good rollback mechanism, and as I understood from Justin, you can fully trust it to take care of itself with regard to high temperatures.
And you are right it's a small 6FET controller, but show me a 12FET controller which comes close enough to what the PR can do. :D

User avatar
MrDude_1
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1034
Joined: Aug 17, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 04, 2018 9:17 am

thunderstorm80 wrote:
Jan 04, 2018 5:48 am
MrDude_1 wrote:
Jan 03, 2018 2:46 pm
you guys are really overthinking this.
if you run the phaserunner to the point that it needs such a big heatsink, it will eventually fail from its inability to shed the heat to the outer heatsink over time... its a tiny 6fet controller.
The PR has a very good rollback mechanism, and as I understood from Justin, you can fully trust it to take care of itself with regard to high temperatures.
And you are right it's a small 6FET controller, but show me a 12FET controller which comes close enough to what the PR can do. :D
close enough would be something like the leyn modified controllers... http://www.lyen.com/

but yeah. I trusted mine to rollback as needed and had a massive block of aluminum with fins bolted to it. I did manage to burn it up. It took over a year, but it happened. The rollback isnt perfect, its limited by the info it gets from the sensor.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

User avatar
macribs
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3292
Joined: Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by macribs » Jan 04, 2018 11:59 pm

Seems there are various threads about heatsinks for the Phaserunners. wonder why there ain't a 12 FET version available? Or even bigger? Seems a lot of people love what the phaserunner does, but after seeing these threads it seems some would want a higher FET version of the phaserunner.

What kind of peak A are you guys pushing with the added heat sinks?

User avatar
MrDude_1
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1034
Joined: Aug 17, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Using bicycle's frame as heatsink for the Phaserunner

Post by MrDude_1 » Jan 05, 2018 12:44 am

macribs wrote:
Jan 04, 2018 11:59 pm
Seems there are various threads about heatsinks for the Phaserunners. wonder why there ain't a 12 FET version available? Or even bigger? Seems a lot of people love what the phaserunner does, but after seeing these threads it seems some would want a higher FET version of the phaserunner.

What kind of peak A are you guys pushing with the added heat sinks?
because the controller its based on is 6fet... not a custom design. And the sellers target market are practical low/mid power ebike designs, not high power. they're looking at making a smaller one, not larger. If you want smaller, get a VESC or a FOCbox. if you want larger, right now adaptto has a range... phaserunner is right in-between.. its really really good at what it does, but if you ask too much of it, it will eventually pop.
Its best to just run it a bit conservatively and enjoy it... or get a larger controller. :?
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

Post Reply