It shouldn't be this hard.

tanstaafl

10 W
Joined
Apr 21, 2017
Messages
92
Let me preface this with a couple of statements so everybody knows where I'm coming from:
1. The CAv3 is great. I love it and I haven't seen anything I like better.
2. I've had a really shitty day -- and it's my birthday. I took the day off from work and decided to "have fun" working on my bike. It wasn't fun.

But, those two things aside, I really feel that I'm right about the title. It SHOULDN'T be this hard. My current object of ire is this CAv3 I just said I love. It's a love-hate relationship, clearly. Why do I have to pull out a soldering iron to modify something on a small unit that's really NOT designed well for amateur soldering modifications? Really, I'm used to this stuff with hobby equipment, but the board on the CA just isn't all that easy to work with -- the parts are all tiny these days and space is kinda cramped when you're doing something to the board. It just shouldn't be necessary. And I seem to be having a perfect storm of needs to modify my CA. I'm not talking about something esoteric, I'm talking basic stuff:
1. EM3EV sells Mac motors and sells CAs to use with them, so I thought, I could just order the motor and use it with my existing CA -- what could go wrong? Well, they put in a temperature sensor that's not compatible with the CA unless you pull out your soldering iron and remove a resistor and add another one (and maybe add a cap also, though I didn't do that part). Why not just stick to what would work? A 10K thermistor isn't as good as the sensor that was built into my motor, BUT I DON'T CARE. It would have worked out of the box with no soldering on my existing CA.
2. And, of course, I had the wrong version of the CA to begin with, because I was using the same one I had on my older direct drive motor. I had to add a speed sensor and solder it onto the CA board. Why not just have an extra connector on the back? (and then have a CA configuration for which one input to use for speed) Would it really raise the price that much?
3. Then I bought a TDCM -- something also sold to work with the CA, so no problem, right? NO. With the TDCM and my battery voltage, I've got to do surgery on the freaking thing ONE MORE TIME! Because the battery voltage is so high, the CA can't supply enough power (to TDCM, throttle, ebrakes, etc.), so I have to wire in an external regulated power supply and wire up the battery voltage to another pad (yet more soldering) and, oh by the way, add a couple more resistors, move a solder bridge, etc. Would it really have cost that much to just put in a freaking circuit board mounted switch? They're pennies, really.

And then there are all the other things I wish were better on the CA. The display, honestly, sucks. It was OK-ish a few years ago, but times have changed. You can buy an android phone for less than $50 with an awesome display built in. Now I know CAs will never be made in the billions like phones are, but here's the thing -- you don't have to build a fancy display. Hundreds of phone manufacturers are willing to do it for you! Just build in the controls and smarts into the CA and let people use their own phones for the display. Even if somebody doesn't want to use their own $1000 iPhone or Galaxy, it's not a big hurdle for them to pluck down the money for a sub-$50 phone just to use it as a dedicated display! Then you could add some really nice stuff to the interface app (and even charge extra for those nice things to get some extra profit!). Stuff like automatic logging, GPS and map display, all the data currently displayed on the CA but in a bigger, clearer, display, ... Integrate it with the communications with a nice bms so that you can monitor individual cell voltages from the same display.

And why are there so many WIRES? And all of them different! Why not standardize on a bus and just use the same couple of wires for hooking up all the peripherals? This isn't a new concept, unless you're working on an ebike.

And why doesn't the controller already supply the kind of voltage the CA would need? Especially controllers that are built with the CAv3 wiring already attached! If you know you're building a controller that can handle a lot of volts, guess that people are buying the controller to USE a high voltage battery and know that the CA has power supply problems with high voltage sources. Sell the controller with the solution already built in. Instead, people are told to cobble together a hacked up POS that uses a laptop power supply or something like that.

And why...

Rant over. My latest little fiasco was that when I went to move the solder bridge, I apparently lifted the pad off the board and took it away with the solder. Naturally, it was the middle pad that lifted -- either of the other two would be easy to work around (the lower one isn't even needed any more and the upper one is a from a board input just a fraction of an inch away). If anybody can tell me where to connect my voltage in, so that I can make this thing work, I'd appreciate it. Maybe I'll get somebody actually competent at soldering these tiny little connections to do this for me.
 
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19452
teklektik
This is the person you should message!
 
markz said:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19452
teklektik
This is the person you should message!
You're probably right and he's been very helpful in the past. I don't want to message somebody if I can get an answer here. I can't be the only person that will ever have this problem, so getting the answer here might help somebody. Maybe. The problem of course is that there are literally hundreds of pages of posts on the CAv3, so it'll probably get lost in the mass of (useful!) information and it'll have to be asked all over again anyway.

Maybe I just needed to rant... But really, I'm sticking with my original point -- it shouldn't be this hard. Maybe CAv4 will fix a lot of things. If they're still improving things, at least there's hope.

5 years from now, CA will probably get the battery's voltage reading wirelessly from the controller -- like it will get all the other signals from brakes, throttle, etc. And everything will just work without soldering. And the installation will look a lot neater without 20' of various wires draped over my bike (though I expect this will have it's own problems).
 
Got the same issue, with CA V3 for my dd, and wanted to use it for geared, I opened mine up and soldered it no problem. My soldering iron was a blunt point, Harbour Freight/Princess Auto, my hands werent that steady due to an injury and my eyes were 75%. I still managed.
 
markz said:
Got the same issue, with CA V3 for my dd, and wanted to use it for geared, I opened mine up and soldered it no problem. My soldering iron was a blunt point, Harbour Freight/Princess Auto, my hands werent that steady due to an injury and my eyes were 75%. I still managed.
Yeah, I thought _I_ could. I don't get it -- I've done much more involved work. I've built my own computer add-ons, done Heathkit kits (does anybody even remember those anymore?), Usually they were even fun! But it's been 30 years since I did very much of it. I still remember back when adding memory to your computer was soldering individual memory chips piggy-back onto your motherboard with one pin lifted and soldered to an address line on the other side of the MB. So I have no idea why I've had so much trouble lately...
 
tanstaafl said:
You can buy an android phone for less than $50 with an awesome display built in. Now I know CAs will never be made in the billions like phones are, but here's the thing -- you don't have to build a fancy display. Hundreds of phone manufacturers are willing to do it for you! .
FWIW, there's an active project here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59893
to let you do just that. Just PM Sigmacom about it via that thread.


There's been other projects but I don't know their status
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73777
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45661


Regarding the other issues, they've come up before. I myself have issues with the small bits of today's electronics; I made a view-magnifying station with a camera found at goodwill and the input to a largish display.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61874
It helps seeing stuff, but my hands still don't work like they used to, and I haven't built teh "waldoes" to let me carefully hold and position parts and soldering iron and solder, so its still hard for me to work with that small stuff. Even just the "helping hands" things that use alligator clips to hold stuff would help, though.


(I used to have heathkit ham radio stuff; audio amp, oscilloscope, etc...that was a lot easier to work on).
 
tanstaafl said:
Rant over.
No point in writing about any of that...

That said, I'd like to make mention of the difficulties had with the MAC motor supplied by EM3EV. Paul finds that in his worldwide market, most customers do not use a CA and prefer to low-ball it with minimal monitoring or a controller with a built-in LCD display. In these cases, the LM35 sensor in the MAC allows direct temperature display using a cheap $5 voltmeter with no supporting electronics at all. This has nothing to do with accuracy and everything to do with required electronics.

Because the CA can be coerced into working with the LM35, he simplifies stocking issues and does not try to bulk purchase inventory in advance with two different sensors.

An Alternate MAC Sensor Strategy
  • My recommendation is not to modify the CA, but rather to modify the motor. EM3EV can supply motors laced into nice Alex DM24/DX32 rims and ships those assemblies with the motor disassembled to prevent shipping damage from a heavy motor in the wheel build. This presents an opportunity to snip of the leads from the LM35, leave it glued in place, and glue/solder a CA-compatible NTC 10K thermistor into place in its stead. This requires only limited soldering skills and leaves the CA unchanged and ready for use with a future motor with a proper sensor.

    Although this is arguably undoing something already paid for, the tough part is routing the the sensor wire into the motor, whereas adding the proper sensor is trivial by comparison. This is a low risk mod that literally takes just a few minutes before assembling the motor. If a bare motor is purchased, it's easy to pop open the case since the shaft, bearing surfaces, etc are in virgin condition - so an extra step, but not difficult - very different than opening a weathered motor with thousands of miles on it.
Anyhow, I'm sure this strategy will not be embraced by all, but I recommend it for ease of implementation, low risk, and future-proofing the CA, particularly if you've ordered your MAC with a laced wheel. (And FWIW, it's what I do, even though I have the equipment and skills to mod a CA without difficulty....)
 
That's probably a good point. It would have been easier to just replace the sensor.

Any advice about my current problem? Where to route the incoming battery voltage (after being divided using a couple of resistors) since I seem to have screwed up the pad on the board?
 
tanstaafl said:
Any advice about my current problem? Where to route the incoming battery voltage (after being divided using a couple of resistors) since I seem to have screwed up the pad on the board?
Not really.
I have the schematic but not the PCB layout. Eventually the middle voltage reference pad connects to pin 22 of the processor, but I can't tell you where to pick up a trace that would offer a safer soldering target than the processor itself. It would be tiny anyhow...

You need to go to Grin to get a recommendation from Justin on this one.
 
I received a message from info@ebikes.ca with the information I needed. They're helpful as always, and I appreciate it. As soon as I get home, I'll give it a try.

But I'm still puzzled about one thing -- they reported that there's no "default" battery voltage sent to the display. So where is 72.0 coming from? That's too perfect a voltage to have just appeared by chance, ins't it? And I guarantee there's nothing connected to that middle pad anymore. It's not there. And even if it were, I haven't actually hooked anything up to the Vex input yet! And it's not coming from the normal CA power because I'm only feeding in 42 volts there, for now (soon to be a regulated 16v). It's just too weird that some random voltage could get multiplied by the calibration value (31 point something measured volts per battery volt) and end up at 72.0.

Anybody have an idea where this is coming from?
 
The ADC sequences across a number of voltage sources. Right now your batt reference input is floating so when the scan gets to that input the sampling caps don't have a voltage to change the charge from the previous sample. So - the processor is really looking at a duplicate of the previous sampled voltage and applying the configured voltage scaling to it as if it was the true battery voltage. I'd have to check the code to see what the previous sample actually is, but that's pretty much what's going on - there's no 'default' but you are seeing a ghost voltage from another input scaled as if it was real. If that 'previous voltage source' changes, so will your apparent battery voltage (!).
 
teklektik said:
The ADC sequences across a number of voltage sources. Right now your batt reference input is floating so when the scan gets to that input the sampling caps don't have a voltage to change the charge from the previous sample. So - the processor is really looking at a duplicate of the previous sampled voltage and applying the configured voltage scaling to it as if it was the true battery voltage. I'd have to check the code to see what the previous sample actually is, but that's pretty much what's going on - there's no 'default' but you are seeing a ghost voltage from another input scaled as if it was real. If that 'previous voltage source' changes, so will your apparent battery voltage (!).
Wow. And it just happens to exactly scale it to 72.0 volts? Well, I guess it's as likely as any other random voltage, but I'm still surprised. Thanks for the explanation.
 
tanstaafl said:
I received a message from info@ebikes.ca with the information I needed. They're helpful as always, and I appreciate it. As soon as I get home, I'll give it a try...
It seems I was a little too quick with my praise. Here's the advice I got:
CA_Pad_Layout.gifThe via I have circled on the above diagram is the same as the middle pad, and represents the easiest place to connect.

The reason I say I was too quick is that I don't understand how to get to the area under the processor on the board. Is there something I'm missing here? The board doesn't seem to separate from the one below. I tried pretty hard (but, of course, I didn't want to force it and break something). Is there some trick I don't understand?
cav3.JPG
Sorry for the low quality on the picture, it was the best my camera could do.
 
Thats right.... welcome to the club.

Spend the next 5 nights wading through a 300 page thread on CA v3 and try to get a clue then say you get it and welcome to the club. Really that is how it is.
 
Just got another email from info@ebikes.ca. I have to give them full credit for trying to help -- replying to my email in a couple of hours (at night) is pretty responsive. The bad news is that wiring directly to the processor is my best bet (those tiny pins set so close together...)

But the processor is easy to get to. I'm going to get some wire wrap from a friend at work -- I got rid of my last many years ago. If I work at it, maybe I can get him to solder the connection for me!

At least I have all the other soldering done and it seems OK.
 
Back
Top