MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

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Ecky
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MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Ecky » Nov 15, 2017 4:40 pm

Finally got my corovelo put together, and I'm working on getting my phaserunner and CA3 tuned/programmed. Before you ask, I searched pretty extensively and wasn't able to find what I was looking for.

With the rear wheel lifted off the ground (no load), it seems to respond to throttle exactly as it did with the no-name Chinese controller. However, when I sit in it, I can press the throttle and it seems to respond on whim. Sometimes it will begin to roll forward weakly, sometimes it will shudder but not move, and sometimes I can hold the throttle for 10 seconds and it will finally jolt forward seemingly without warning. I'm wondering what to start playing with to fix this.

EDIT: Is it possibly in the CA that I need to be looking?

Graph of me pressing the throttle a few times:

Image


Here are my settings:

Image

Image

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SprocketLocket
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by SprocketLocket » Nov 20, 2017 1:03 am

This isn't going to be helpful, but hopefully my comment will give your post a bump.

Mainly for other readers doing searches, I decided not to buy a PhaseRunner after doing multiple searches of 'PhaseRunner' plus 'MAC', and reading of the numerous difficulties people have had with geared motors. I don't know what the deal is, but add to that the high price, and the fact that I learned the unit needs to be USB-programmed etc first, well, the writing was on the wall for me. I find it a little odd that Ebikes.ca website does not have any warnings for geared motors other than the max RPM. You are brave. I hope someone here can help you.

I wanted the PhaseRunner for its efficiency, handling up to 100V, sine wave, but especially its small size and unique heat management. Grinfineon is sinewave, but lacks some PR killer features, though is still a good size for the power. The big upside is it's plug-and-play, in fact actually not programmable at all, unlike EM3EV's Infineons; Grin says just customize with the Cycle Analyst instead.

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Alan B
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Alan B » Nov 20, 2017 1:21 am

I've had no difficulties with the PhaseRunner on a BMC gearmotor on my 2WD Bonanza.

It is not a simple controller to set up. It took a few tries to get it to auto configure with my BMC.

It is superb once properly configured.

I wouldn't recommend it unless one is willing to tackle the work, and patient enough to work through some issues.

Ecky
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Ecky » Nov 20, 2017 9:45 am

Alan B wrote:
Nov 20, 2017 1:21 am
I've had no difficulties with the PhaseRunner on a BMC gearmotor on my 2WD Bonanza.

It is not a simple controller to set up. It took a few tries to get it to auto configure with my BMC.

It is superb once properly configured.

I wouldn't recommend it unless one is willing to tackle the work, and patient enough to work through some issues.
Maybe this isn't an issue on a bicycle, but I frequently ride my trike in wet/frozen conditions, with 2-3000w to the rear, which is relatively light. Going over ice will cause it to slip. Even riding over white paint on roads when wet will often cause the rear wheel to slip, and RPM to rapidly increase. This isn't unsafe in and of itself on the trike, but it causes the controller to cut power to the motor pretty reliably with an instantaneous phase overcurrent faults. Do you have any tips on minimizing the controller throwing this fault in slick conditions?

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Alan B
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Alan B » Nov 20, 2017 3:38 pm

I know an automotive firmware engineer who works on things like this. They spend a lot of time on an ice covered test track and re-tune the feedback loops to make them stable in these conditions for vehicles. The overcurrent likely occurs when the traction is regained. Gains and limits need to be adjusted.

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Lebowski
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Lebowski » Nov 20, 2017 3:45 pm

Izeman now has good results with his mid-drive MAC and a Lebowski controller (built by Animalector)...

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teklektik
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by teklektik » Nov 20, 2017 5:28 pm

Ecky wrote:
Nov 20, 2017 9:45 am
...will often cause the rear wheel to slip, and RPM to rapidly increase. This ... causes the controller to cut power to the motor pretty reliably with an instantaneous phase overcurrent faults. Do you have any tips on minimizing the controller throwing this fault in slick conditions?
Oddly - Justin was just talking about running some tests on a PR parameter that is meant to avoid hard engagements for motors with freewheels by limiting the rate at which (motor) speed increases. This might be useful in this application as well as a means to reduce the high speed windup that occurs when load drops suddenly from loss of traction. Since this ramping is rpm-based, it has a very different effect than the positive and negative torque ramping settings exposed in the PR Utility. This might indirectly mitigate the (over)current spike on regaining traction.

PR_SpeedRampTime.png
PR_SpeedRampTime.png (62.48 KiB) Viewed 221 times

( If you try this, I'd be interested in the results. :D )
Visit Grin Technologies at www.ebikes.ca
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Ecky
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Ecky » Nov 30, 2017 7:46 pm

Sorry for the slow response! Holidays, then a failed Cycle Analyst and a week's worth of troulbeshooting for GRIN. In the intervening time we've had a warm, dry spell (the snow all melted and it hasn't rained), so it'll likely be a week or two minimum before I can test whether that parameter will help.

Ecky
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Ecky » Nov 30, 2017 9:17 pm

So, it's running well in a vast majority of conditions after extensive tuning, but I still have really "soft" starts when using Hall sensor start. That is, unless I get moving under pedal power, it generally can't get itself moving with my weight on the trike. Once it's rolling forward even slightly, it picks up and accelerates as briskly as you'd expect with 3000w.

I'm really not sure what settings would be relevant to "soft starts" though. I could probably just run entirely sensorless, and spend a while tuning that...

Triketech
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Triketech » Dec 02, 2017 10:21 am

I suspect the soft starts are part of the Phaserunner (PR) limitations. Before I added the PR it was set up with the 12 FET Infineon and a 12T MAC. At 40 Amps the MAC would spin the rear tire of my trike from a standing start on my trike. Not exactly good for long life on the gears so I dropped it to 30 A.

When I upgraded to the PR, I also added a MAC 10T cassette and set it 35A. I've played with the settings but no matter its always a relatively soft start, which is a good thing for gear/clutch life.

Ecky
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Ecky » Dec 02, 2017 10:44 am

Nothing I can do about it? Mine is set to feed it up to 96 amps / 3000w, and up to 50 from the battery. From a stop on a steep incline I find myself struggling to get my relatively heavy velomobile moving forward.

Triketech
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Triketech » Dec 02, 2017 11:56 am

Contact Grin through the tech support email. Justin may know some tricks but otherwise I'm not sure of what to do.

But I might try either selecting "0 Hall Sensor" (Motor Parameters) and see if that helps and if it does reset it to Hall Sensor Start" and pushing out alignment times from 100 mS to 1000 mS.

Let me know if that does anything.

Ecky
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Re: MAC + Phaserunner + CA3, sometimes doesn't start

Post by Ecky » Dec 06, 2017 11:13 am

I had some exchanges with Justin, and tried some of his suggestions, none of which seemed to help. Given that I almost never pedal the trike (speeds too high) I think I'm going to put a large DD motor on (more reliable at these power levels, regen) and pair the MAC with a lower powered ebike.

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