ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

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ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:28 am

:shock: .. Just amazing!!... I still wait for my contactor to FINALLY test that me too!!

:shock: :shock: :twisted:

Wow.. awsome results of speed gain!!!

Just like a kickdoen with a normal car engine!!.. or a downshift!!!

DELTA/WYE (french: Etoile/Triangle)




another from the same person: (Delta mode acceleration


Doc
Last edited by Doctorbass on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby GUI13 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:30 am

he !! it's my bike :D

sorry but my english is very poor :(

I tried this mount on my bicycle with a front motor 9C (7 * 9 on 26 "wheel)
the no load speed is 895 rpm at 48v. :evil:
but on my bike the torque is not enough to exceed the 53 km/h with a 22A infineon controler , i will try with a 30A controler .

i think this mount is good for a small whell (like 20") or with a short winding like 6*10.


I hope you understood what I meant :?
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:40 am

GUI13 wrote:he !! it's my bike :D

sorry but my english is very poor :(

I tried this mount on my bicycle with a front motor 9C (7 * 9 on 26 "wheel)
the no load speed is 895 rpm at 48v. :evil:
but on my bike the torque is not enough to exceed the 53 km/h with a 22A infineon controler , i will try with a 30A controler .

i think this mount is good for a small whell (like 20") or with a short winding like 6*10.


I hope you understood what I meant :?


English:
Hello GUI

Welcome to the forum!.. if you join us for a while like i did, your english will probably ameliorate :wink:

So you confirm that with your 9 continent kit and the 25 A controller, you get 53km/h at 48V right ? I ask cause many of us bought that kit few days ago.. (a great deal at 180$ usd but without the battery)

Yes, probably that your max speed will increase if you take a more powerfull controller, but generally, it's the voltage that help for that.. the current is for the torque. but if you still have not enough torque to keep that speed, having more curent availlable will help.

I had the same idea of you few month ago about the Delta/WYE switch!.. i'm still waiting to receive the contactor that will do the switch, A 3PDT 60A contactor!

Here you will find alot of ebikers that diy and mod their own kit!.. some of us have crazy power on our motor!... :twisted:

When you say 7 * 9 or 6 * 10.. what do you mean exactly?


Doc

French:

Bienvenue GUY !, Si tu reste un bon moment avec nous, tu verra, ca vuiendra avec ton anglais! (je parle français aussi (du Quebec))

Donc tu est-ce que tu peux nous confirmer que'effectivement avec 48V et ton kit 9 continent tu atteint 53km/h? Je demande car plusieur desirent le savoir cau nous somme quelques'un a avoir commandé ce kit il y a quelques jours ici, c'est un gar de Ebike kit qui est venu nous offrir son deal à 180$ le kit complet sans batterie!

Oui, je peux te dire que si tu passe d'un controlleur 25 A a un controlleur avec 30A ou plus, ta vitesse va s'améliorer un peu a 48V, mais generagelent c'est le voltage qui donne la vitesse et le courant qui donne le torque. Par contre a 50km/h et plus ca prend les 2!

J'ai eue la meme idée il y a quelques mois avec le Delta/WYE ( triangle/etoile) car je cherchais un moyen d' augmenter ma vitesse maxi malgré que je roule a 100V car je ne veux pas ajouter plus de voltage.. c'est le max que mon controleur modifié peut prendre et que les mosfet du tonner qu'il y a a l'intérieur peuvent prendre aussi!. Je me monte un velo de drag!! 150A 100V sur un Crystalyte 5305. J,en sui a monter un de mes 2 future controlleur. celui actuel a 100A max.. celui que je monte aura 150 A max !! .. le secret c,est les mosfet!.. des IRFB4110.. très populaire ici.. la creme de la creme des mosfet pour le courant... et ce jusqu'a 100V !

L'idée du delya / WYe c'est aussi pour tester 2 vitesses "ELECTRIQUES"!.. car en etoile, ca donne du torque et faible vitesse... et en triangle ca s'inverse.. comme une transmission de voiture le fait..

J'attend toujours mes contacteur 3pdt qui feront le switching pour cela en passant ici nous somme ue veritable gang de ebikers qui fabrique des truc vraiment dement et demesuré!.. vive la science! et les kit qui peuvent battre une voiture sur l'acceleration du depart!!! :mrgreen:


Que voulais tu dire avec les 7 x 9 et 6 x 10 ?

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby wasp » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:09 am

wow nice vids nice sound from these 9C MOTORS
i need learn more about the delta/wye...
would running a front and rear 9C's help with pushing past 53kph?
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby GUI13 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:48 am

there are differents windings on 9C ,6*10,7*9,8*8,9*7 (9C are very popular in france ..)
for example: a 7*9 9C FH205 , it's 7 wires on 9 turns, 48v load speed 380 rpm
a 7*9 9C fh154 , it's 7 wires on 9 turns , 48v load speed 420 rpm better speed but lower torque
a 9*7 9C rh205 , 48v load speed 485 trs/min
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:20 pm

GUI13 wrote:there are differents windings on 9C ,6*10,7*9,8*8,9*7 (9C are very popular in france ..)
for example: a 7*9 9C FH205 , it's 7 wires on 9 turns, 48v load speed 380 rpm
a 7*9 9C fh154 , it's 7 wires on 9 turns , 48v load speed 420 rpm better speed but lower torque
a 9*7 9C rh205 , 48v load speed 485 trs/min


OK.. I understand.. that's quite similar with thge crystalyte serie...

in the 400 and 5000 serie the last digit indicate the number of turn.. and the more turn the more torque but less speed.

ex: 408 have 8 turn and is faster than a 409..

The 5303 is faster than the 5305 but have less torque.. etc...


Justin from the ebikes.ca have the 2806 and the 2807 9 continent motor.. do you know how to understand every digit of these numbers?

Gui, do you know a great website that have all these explanations about the nine continent motor/kit? anyway french or english..?

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby wasp » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:32 pm

is the delta/wye wired through the motor or controller ?

doc the 3PDT you ordered is it from square d pn-82262 ?
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:58 pm

wasp wrote:is the delta/wye wired through the motor or controller ?



It's between them.. but you need to get 6 wires out of the hub motor. (have each phase wire pair seperatly)



wasp wrote:doc the 3PDT you ordered is it from square d pn-82262 ?


no.. it's a 3PDT form Leach : Image
Image


rkosiorek also tried that on that thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7847&hilit=leach&start=15

The schematic for DELTA/WYE is thisone (each coil is one phase) Image

here is a simplified exemple:


Doc
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Star or triangle  SIMPLIFIED labeled_800x538.jpg
Star or triangle SIMPLIFIED labeled_800x538.jpg (27.01 KiB) Viewed 15782 times
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby Drunkskunk » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:20 pm

Amazing...
Welcome to our forum.

Don't worry about the French. We're international here, and your English is better than Some who only speak English :D
How much increase in torque are you getting with the delta configuration?



Doc, I had seen you mention the contractor before, but I'd never taken a look at the schematic on the side. That thing might be perfect for switching my tapped motor. how many watts does it pull when engaged?
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:53 pm

Drunkskunk wrote:
How much increase in torque are you getting with the delta configuration?


In the delta you loose torque for a speed gain.. exactly like a mecanic transmission. the ratio os 1.73.. the speed in delta become 1.73 faster and the torque become 1.73 times less.

that's why I would recommand the use of that principle with a motor that already have alot of torque.. like a 5305 or 5404 and the 408, 409,4011 and 4013 for the crystalyte and other high winding coil count motor.
(more winding turn per pole)

Basically this Delta Wye is used in the industry to start heavy 20kW+ electric motor. that avoid current peak of 8 to 9 times the nominal current!.. the motor start first in STAR (WYE) .. and when the desired speed is acheived it switch to DELTA.

Now for ebike use, i would recommand that method for pleple like me that like torque alot! and really dont want to sacrifice that when become the moment to have speed....

In my case i decided to keep my voltage limit to under 100V and my max speed is 76kmh with my 5305.. but for my drag setup, that's not enough fast.. but i still need all that torque dor the first 150m of hard acceleration. So the unique solution is to modify the winding of the motor with a contactor when my speed become close to the max.. then the acceleration happen again for the rest of the race lane.

Also that could be usefull for people that have a low voltage controller and that need to keep it BUT that want higher speed.

In other words.. the Delta/WYE method change the KV of the motor.

Doc



Drunkskunk wrote:
Doc, I had seen you mention the contractor before, but I'd never taken a look at the schematic on the side. That thing might be perfect for switching my tapped motor. how many watts does it pull when engaged?


It's 24V coil on it and i think it draw 8W.. but the reason why i want to use contactor is that there is no 3PDT switch able to hold the current i need... 50A+...

For people with a max 35A controller.. a nice 20A 3PDT switch shold do the job well.. some are on ebay...

Doc
Last edited by Doctorbass on Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby GUI13 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:55 pm

with delta configuration the torque dropped dramatically (divided by 1,732) in this case we much have more amps ...

doc : i don't urderstand the different numbers of justin's motor ...
unfortunately I do not know of any technical documents on the 9C, and yet I sell it in france ....
10022009383-800.jpg
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby Doctorbass » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:44 pm

Gui, just for fun, lets compare the crystalyte 5305 of this thread about a toasted vs non taosted 5305..

Methods abused a bit too much his motor :lol:


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8691&hilit=5305&start=30

The winding on the 5305 is heavy and the stator have 5cm diamater. The wires are 5 parallel 17AWG size wire per phase

The weight of the 5305 is 25 pounds and it handle 4kW continuous anyway it is a 750W nominal.. and some like me use it at 8kW+

The 9 continent seems have a great torque for his weight!.. it weight 14 pounds right?

So you sell it and have no specs from the compagny instead of the 500W common rating?

Doc


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________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: Video of DELTA / WYE found on youtube. With a 9 continent

Postby philf » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:00 pm

Doctorbass wrote:Hello GUI

Welcome to the forum!.. if you join us for a while like i did, your english will probably ameliorate :wink:



Welcome GUI! Language is no issue here. If you take our own Doc, here, as an example - you'll often find deeper dives into the English lexicon than most of the "English-only" people here employ. "Ameliorate" is a *fine* and particularly nifty word for day-to-day use :-).

Really - I wish I spoke more than one language (programming languages don't count), and that there are so many here (Doc among them) that do so very well at expressing themselves - even at a technical level - in a second language impresses the hell out of me. So stick with us!
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby fechter » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:49 pm

Thank you for posting your test results. :wink:

I always wanted to try that to see what happens.

So you get a 1.73 ratio? Nice.
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby GUI13 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:24 am

thank you for your encouragement :D

31012009374-800.jpg
rear rh205 8*8
31012009374-800.jpg (53.57 KiB) Viewed 15608 times



on my motors (rh205 8*8 ) its engrave 48v 800W , but i think it's same than a 48v 500w :lol:
on my mtb : 39 km/h infineon controler 48v22a 16wh/km .



DSC_0515-800cadre.jpg
DSC_0515-800cadre.jpg (226.77 KiB) Viewed 15521 times

DSC_0520-800.jpg
torque arm
DSC_0520-800.jpg (40.15 KiB) Viewed 15570 times




i will try the DELTA / STAR on my solar trike with 20" whell to have a good torque ( 29km/h max ) and a good speed (50 km/h) :twisted: for the" Phebus rally" (very different than the drag racing , the best is that which consumes the least :wink: whith help of sun ..)
Last edited by GUI13 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby paultrafalgar » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:08 am

Gui, have you a link for the Pheobus rally? Can't find one on Google.
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby GUI13 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:42 am

ouuuups ! :oops: rally phebus http://rallyesolaire.eu/
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby paultrafalgar » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:36 am

Thanks, Gui, and here's what Google translated that into:

A solar rally, why?
The sun is tested constantly by satellites and observatoiresterrestres to better understand its operation and its influence on our climate.
The earth is a solar collector in space and our daily life depends on it. People naturally use solar energy for hundreds of thousands of years. Now came the time when they rediscovered as a source of clean, renewable energy.
For satellites and spacecraft, this energy is immediately seen as the most cost-effective. The will of the founding organizers of the rally, 'ENSEEIHT Phébus Ariège, the CNRS and the Cité de l'espace, is to be the core issues related to environmental quality, which led them to create this draft Solar Rally in 2000.
The technology required to make a solar vehicle are often researched and developments which the space is a precursor.
By organizing this European Solar Rally, we want to offer the public a better understanding of the challenges and enormous potential energy that represents for us the nearest star to Earth, the Sun!
From 28 to 1 June 2009

So you see your Engish is better than Google's translation of French! :D
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby fechter » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:45 am

Nice bike!

Where do you put the batteries?
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby GUI13 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:49 am

in my backpack !
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby karma » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:46 am

hay it works nice work gui13. i never got around to trying it. now that i see the results, i think its worth the extra work. :wink:

cheers
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby solarbbq2003 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:32 pm

gui just wondering if the windings are all in parallel like inpic below, or maybe some in series? could change motor rpm etc by changing how the coils are connected also
fp parallsmall.jpg
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby Bouladou » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:22 pm

Bonjour à tous.
Je vous lis souvent grâce à un traducteur car je suis nul en Anglais !
Je met un lien pour Doctorbass sur une discussion ou il y a des renseignements sur les moteurs 9 Continent.
http://cyclurba.fr/forum/51960/differen ... &pageprec=
Je suis très intéressé par : ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent mais je n’y comprend pas grand choses. Je vais voir avec Gui13 et d’autres s’ils peuvent m’expliquer le principe ?

Salutations amicales


Hello to all.
I often read through a translator because I am no one in English!
I put a link to a discussion on Doctorbass or there is information on engines Continent 9.
http://cyclurba.fr/forum/51960/differen ... &pageprec=
I am very interested in: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent, but I did not understand much. I will do with Gui13 and others if they can explain the principle?

Kind regards
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby Doctorbass » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:27 pm

solarbbq2003 wrote:gui just wondering if the windings are all in parallel like inpic below, or maybe some in series? could change motor rpm etc by changing how the coils are connected also
The attachment fp parallsmall.jpg is no longer available


I also had this idea but the major problem is the qty of wires that goes out of the motor that is too high!! 10 to 12 wires!! instead of 6 like the delta WYE

Also the ratio would be 2 instead of 1.73 for the delta wye. so the current demand would be twice :shock:

See the drawing i did few month ago:

Doc
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________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
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Re: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Postby tostino » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:32 pm

How possible/easy would this be to do with a Bafang motor? Does it have enough room to have all the wires going out the side of the case?
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