ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

[rkosiorek]

another option i tested and i liked a lot was a Cyclone 500W kit driving through a Shimano Nexus Auto-D 4 spd automatic transmission. this was a 4spd internal hub that shimano equiped with a servo motor and controller to do the shifting automatically. worked great.

but i guess that is OT here as this is your thread about the Bafang. Good Job! DoctorBass must be drooling.

rick

[rkosiorek]

what about a solid state relay?

http://www.electrostock.com/cry/crysspanel.htm

http://www.chtechnology.com/products/GN ... SS3R50.pdf

SSR's are big and expensive. for this application you would have to mount them to a heatsink, making them even bigger. the "ON" resistance would be higher than most relay contacts.

Doc is right. SSR's are SPST devices. 6 would be needed for this application. instalation here would be huge.

rick

[Doctorbass]

I thought about few mosfet instead of ssr?

With enough delay between the switch sequence from one mode to the other to avoid them to short something?
but the AC voltage on the motor + spikes may requier high voltage mosfet.. 150V? (the 4115 with rds on at around 8mohm?)

I dont know if it would work.. any comment on that?

Doc

[karma]

i have a few here at 150v, ill dig em up and run a test. i like that idea better than a relay.

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/tra ... ran_7.html

worth a try.

[rkosiorek]

the problem is that the MOSFET has a body diode that makes it a polarised device. would need to connect a pair of them back to back for an AC device. we need ac because the controller is H-Bridge and 1/2 of the time the phase is connected to the (B+) through the highside FET and the other half of the time it is connected to the (B-) via the lowside FET.

the next issue is how do you turn on the FETs. FETs are turned on when the Gate is driven more positive than the Source above a threshold voltage. we need the source of both FETs connected together for a common reference. the 2 drains become the contact terminals. to turn them on either an isolated switched capacitor charge pump or photovoltaic array is required to drive the gates sufficiently positive to switch on the fets. in other words all we have done is a DIY FET output SSR. and we still need a heatsink.

to simplify life there are a couple of driver IC's you should look into VO1263 and LH1262. i tried a design using the VO1263 as well as a discrete design using opto isolators and a charge pump. the FETs failed in both cases.

at a minimum you'll need the driver, 2 mosfets a couple of shunt resistors and a 1 meg resistor for a N.O. SPST switch. i tried using one made using 4X IRFB4110 and 0.005R 25W shunts. ran hot and burned out fairly quickly. i think for the same reason as the 4110 did not work in Doc's CBA. ie it is not rated to work in the DC or almost DC region. Recently I learned a little about that from suggestions made by CamLight on my thread for designing an active load.

be interesting to see how this works out.

rick

[Doctorbass]

That's true rkosiorek , I forgot that.. for the negative and positive side of the AC and mosfets....

Dohhh!...


Today I oppened my 9 x 7 nine cont motor to see if i could put larger wires than the 16 gauge stock one.

and for fun i measured and calculated the diameter of the winding wire size.

I wanted to have an idea of the maximum current this motor can take about the winding wire size inside.

I know that My X5 can take up to 90-100A for couples of seconds and that the total winding sectional is 5.2mm^2
(5 parallel AWG 17)

Not i calculated that the 9 x AWG 22 wires inside the 9 continent is equal to 2.8mm^2

so the difference between both motor sectional wire per phase is exactly 1.85

And the total weight of the motor for the mass to dissipate heat is 25lbs and 14lbs = 1.78

So i can assume that the ratio of power that the X5 motor can take would be close to 1.8 times the nine continent

If the X5 can take 90A burst than that mean the nine continent could take 50A burst probably 35A cont

Doc

[rkosiorek]

i designed it thinking i might be able to use it to switch my dual winding 5304/5302 motor and mount the whole thing inside the motor case. i only built one switch to test the idea.

all i did was stink up the entie floor of the apartment building when i fried the FETS. the heat build up was impressive. i think that for now relays are the only practical approach.

of course my design skills are not the greatest. mostly self taught and at the expense of sacrificing a lot of parts. so an actual engineer should do better tham me. but so far i have not attracted any suckers... err... volunteers to help out.

since christmas i have been playing with a Delta/Wye switch for a 500W BMC. i'm using a 40A Crystalyte controller, 3X 40A lighting relays and a circuit that mometarily interrupts the motor power by pulling down the e-brake line during the changeover. it works well enough that i want to try the same basic idea for te series/parallel 5304/5302. excep there i would use 6 relays.

rick

[Doctorbass]

i designed it thinking i might be able to use it to switch my dual winding 5304/5302 motor and mount the whole thing inside the motor case. i only built one switch to test the idea.

all i did was stink up the entie floor of the apartment building when i fried the FETS. the heat build up was impressive. i think that for now relays are the only practical approach.

of course my design skills are not the greatest. mostly self taught and at the expense of sacrificing a lot of parts. so an actual engineer should do better tham me. but so far i have not attracted any suckers... err... volunteers to help out.

since christmas i have been playing with a Delta/Wye switch for a 500W BMC. i'm using a 40A Crystalyte controller, 3X 40A lighting relays and a circuit that mometarily interrupts the motor power by pulling down the e-brake line during the changeover. it works well enough that i want to try the same basic idea for te series/parallel 5304/5302. excep there i would use 6 relays.

Excellent idea to activvate the ebrtake during the switching delay!!!

I should try that!

rick

[karma]

That's true rkosiorek , I forgot that.. for the negative and positive side of the AC and mosfets....

Dohhh!...


Today I oppened my 9 x 7 nine cont motor to see if i could put larger wires than the 16 gauge stock one.

and for fun i measured and calculated the diameter of the winding wire size.

I wanted to have an idea of the maximum current this motor can take about the winding wire size inside.

I know that My X5 can take up to 90-100A for couples of seconds and that the total winding sectional is 5.2mm^2
(5 parallel AWG 17)

Not i calculated that the 9 x AWG 22 wires inside the 9 continent is equal to 2.8mm^2

so the difference between both motor sectional wire per phase is exactly 1.85

And the total weight of the motor for the mass to dissipate heat is 25lbs and 14lbs = 1.78

So i can assume that the ratio of power that the X5 motor can take would be close to 1.8 times the nine continent

If the X5 can take 90A burst than that mean the nine continent could take 50A burst probably 35A cont

Doc

thats about right im running in my test 25a cont and the motor case stays warm. still no magic smoke

i gave up on the mosfets, i used em up a my last amplifer project

[rkosiorek]

i liked the VO1263 driver chip though. it is photo-voltaic. internally it is an optoisolator with the usual LED input. the output though is vastly different. it has a bank of 20 or 30 photo diodes. these photo diodes are like solar cells and can make enough power from the Led's light to drive the external FET's directly. that means that no external power source is needed to drive it (other than the drive current for the LED)

i was thinking of using the aluminium body of the stator itself as the heatsink. it still may work, but i think that developing the SSR would be a touch beyond my present skill set unless i get very lucky in selecting the correct components right off the bat. have a better chance of winning the lotto.

the ebrake delay was a simple 555 timer driving a miniature PC mount relay i pulled from an discarded PC modem card.

rick

[karma]

further testing has had a good speed increase but im finding in delta the hubmotor has a weird vibe thats hard on spokes. thay snap around the nipple. im just replacing them as thay snap
the relays are holding up even on steep hills.

[Doctorbass]

further testing has had a good speed increase but im finding in delta the hubmotor has a weird vibe thats hard on spokes. thay snap around the nipple. im just replacing them as thay snap
the relays are holding up even on steep hills.

Thanks Karma! That would be nice to have a video of that speed shift while riding!!!

I finished my 9 continent motor mod yesterday. I used the same oem nylon wire for adding 3 to the motor for a total of 6. it's a 1.5mm2 size wich is the equivalent of AWG 14.6 size.

I thik it is ok for up to 35A without melting.

here is some pics of my DELTA/WYE mod:

[rkosiorek]

so how soon do we get a report on how well it runs?

rick

[karma]

ill leave the testing and reviews to doc. i still need a ca and other parts. didnt get a chance for a youtube vid. verry windy and cold here. looks like winter making a comback

nice work on the hubmotor.

[rkosiorek]

last couple of days have been rainy, last night was pretty windy, but temp wise it has not been that bad just 280km West of you in belleville, ON.

rick

[Almasi]

further testing has had a good speed increase but im finding in delta the hubmotor has a weird vibe thats hard on spokes. thay snap around the nipple. im just replacing them as thay snap
the relays are holding up even on steep hills.

Thanks Karma! That would be nice to have a video of that speed shift while riding!!!

I finished my 9 continent motor mod yesterday. I used the same oem nylon wire for adding 3 to the motor for a total of 6. it's a 1.5mm2 size wich is the equivalent of AWG 14.6 size.

I thik it is ok for up to 35A without melting.

here is some pics of my DELTA/WYE mod:

Very nice, can't wait to see your review and how well it hold the switching with load on it... I sooooo want to do this on my 5304 once I get next week!

Robin

[Doctorbass]

IT WORK !!!!!


7 april 2009 2h23am

I can confirm that using a 3PDT contactor at up to 75V and switching from WYE (star) to DELTA while the motor is running at full throttle, nothing blow!!

I used the ecrazyman 12 mosfet that Steveo sent me few month ago that i moded using better caps, more shunt in parallel, better regulator resistors and the famous 4110 mosfet.

I did that experiemnt in my lab with a nine continent RH206 motor the (9 x 7).

Speed recorded at 72V: 75kph in normal star (WYE) mode

Speed recorded at 63V: 143kph !!.. in delta mode

Highlighted facts:

I succeded to switch the contactor while the motor was running WOT without blowing something eventhough at 63V!!

Doc

Happy.. happy.. and .... ....happy !!

[Doctorbass]

Video here:

See part 1 and dont forget... part two also!!

PART 1


PART 2


Doc

[Almasi]

AMAZING!!!!

Vraiment cool de voir comment ca donne plus de vitesse

I whish I could find a relay like that 3PDT with big amp rating that still fit in a Ebike....and no I don't plan to spend 1500$ USD!

Robin

[karma]

im using 3 20amp relays on each phase and its holding together.

nice vid doc. yes you will find when going from delta back to star with no load could be bad for the controller. but under load its not a problem.
im finding it only works well if you have a nice long road to pick up speed and no headwind


what would be nice is a extra relay that up's the amps in delta. than you would have that turbo button feel all i get is a change in rpm slowly. if you hit it just right.

[rkosiorek]

maybe we should look into a sufficiently large Transorb (TVS) to clamp the voltage spikes above 100V?

rick

[Doctorbass]

maybe we should look into a sufficiently large Transorb (TVS) to clamp the voltage spikes above 100V?

rick

yes.. I thought about that.. but i wonder if they will handle all that power above 100V x the current?

With a free wheel it's ok.. the kinetic energy is low.. but with me o the bike on the road.. this is a different story..

I sould try...

[karma]

just a small test on road. i needed a extra hand for the switch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjAChsPPU0

[Doctorbass]

just a small test on road. i needed a extra hand for the switch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjAChsPPU0

That is why i prefered to use a contactor that i can locate close to the controller.. and that can be activated via a small remote switch on the handle bar

Doc

[dimitrib90]

SHOW US A TOP SPEED VIDEO!!! IM DYING TO KNOW HOW FAST THIS THING GOES!!!