Fisher and Paykel motors

[TylerDurden]

Brushless and available in OZ... sometimes for free.

VERY hackable.

Anybody know about these?

http://www.yourgreendream.com/diy_fp_parts.php

[TylerDurden]

More FP stuff:

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/art ... lessFP.asp

[TylerDurden]

yet more, from wiki:

"Fisher & Paykel Appliances is a major appliance manufacturer located in Auckland, New Zealand.

In November 2001 Fisher & Paykel Industries Limited was separated into two independent publicly listed companies, Fisher & Paykel Appliances Holdings Limited and Fisher & Paykel Healthcare Corporation Limited.

Fisher & Paykel was originally founded by Maurice Paykel and Woolf Fisher as an importer of domestic refrigerators. After the government imposed tariffs making it unprofitable to import appliances, Fisher & Paykel began production. At first, the company manufactured appliances under license from other manufacturers. But they later began producing their own innovative designs.

After several years of improving their designs, the team of engineers began incorporating sophisticated electronics from the emerging computer industry. Using technology such as new generation permanent magnet electric motors, Fisher & Paykel has been able to build appliances that performed better while using fewer resources.

Fisher & Paykel holds over 400 patents and has introduced several technological advances in major appliances. Some of the company's trademarked features include Smart Drive autowashers, Active Smart refrigerators, AeroTech ovens and DishDrawer dishwashers. The Fisher & Paykel brand is available in over forty countries worldwide.

Fisher & Paykel appliances are manufactured in Auckland and Dunedin in New Zealand, in Cleveland, Queensland, Australia and in Clyde, Ohio, USA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_&_Paykel

FP appliances are sold in Lowes stores in the US.



"North Americas Most Energy Efficient Top Load Washer uses only 24% of the energy of a traditional washer. Complete the laundry in up to half the time of a frontloader, 1000rpm spin saves up to 30% time and energy in the dryer. This Super Capacity washer with unique brushless DC motor and smart electronics increases reliability with no belts, brakes, pulleys, clutches or gearboxes - parts that aren't there can't fail."
site

There must be some used motors around.

[Miles]

Here's a similar one:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachme ... id=1081168

[Mathurin]

Once again, Brett White to the rescue!

http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/bikeexp/bexp.htm

[TylerDurden]

Good links folks, thanx.

[fechter]

Cool. Typical single phase induction motors are hideously inefficient. Converting line voltage to dc and driving a brushless motor is a big improvement.

Ceramic magnets? Too bad, but that could be fixed. I gurss ceramic magnets are OK as long as you don't run enough current to demagnetize them.

I'm not sure where you'd get one of these motors for cheap. I'll have to wait 20 years for my new washing machine to wear out.

[solarbbq2003]

a guy named mathew lyons is using one on an ebike, I supplied a controller to run it with, alot of work to make one suitable but is looking like a pretty awesome motor, required changing connections into parallel, and ceramic mags were replaced with neos, quite a big job but mathew conquered that section. He's just finishing off a fairly sizeable trike to run it in, but on the bike he was getting very good torque and top speed.
can be used with 120 degree hall sensor spacing controllers with the hall sensor board on the fp motors as they are built.
Will put alot of detail up on website when mathew finishes his trike ( he has a bunch of solar panels too for a roof)

[TylerDurden]

Excellent.

I was hoping to hear a bike controller was working with the FP.

This could be the poor-man's etek.

The developer kits of recycled FPs are very affordable:
http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/product_ ... php?id=109



The Smart Drive Inventors Kit 3 includes the complete history of the Smart Drive in one convenient lot.
Kit includes:
3 stators - of your choice.
3 rotors - of your choice.
3 x Shafts, 3 x bearing holders, 3 x bearings and fixings.
Reconnection manual.
All Smart Drive stators and rotors are in good working order but may have some cosmetic damage.
NZ$350



There is a "as-new" kit too for more $$$

[fechter]

A sensorless RC aircraft controller should be pretty easy to hookup.

That thing is bigger than I thought. Looks almost like a TF hub motor.

Shipping from NZ will kinda kill the deal for me, but those things must be in washing machines around here.

[TylerDurden]

... but those things must be in washing machines around here.

Precisely.

The stator looks thin enough to make Randy's disk-motor that slides onto a NuVinci freehub.

[Storm]

Digging this up again, I have one of these motors, now I'm wondering what sensorless RC controller would work well?

[salty9]

Check the Oz forum:

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1619

[AussieJester]

Now you have gotten interested in the F&P perhaps you electrical gurus can offer some assistance to this member

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14474

He is having issues and has asked for help to no avail thus far...I have suggested he PM a couple
of you? He is having issues fitting hall sensors in the correct locations

These motors are use ALOT in DIY wind turbines, i can get them for free as many as i want
my very good mate is a washing machine repair man and has dozens of them in his shop.

Cheers

KiM

EDIT: Oh and Fechter, the go for 30-40 bucks a pop on EBay usually a few of them there, as mentioned the greenies building DIY wind turbines snap them up.

[fechter]

I should check out the local washing machine repair place.

[F&P]

Hi All,

Yes have been experimenting with the F&P washing machine motors, first as wind turbines and then even using a 1mm motor in parallel as a welder at about 2500rpm, worked great though a big rectifier.

They can be re-configured in many different ways and there are 3 different motors all in series from factory for higher voltages.

They work well with a decent brushless motor controller like the infineon, but you will most likley need to convert the ferrite magnet rotor to rare earth neo mags for much extra power, as I did for a wind turbine.
the first motor i used as a motor again was a 1mm (wire) motor in parellel, measuring about .1 Ohm, way too much load for most controllers and I now use a .8mm motor in parallel measuring about .4 ohm.

They really do work great and for how much weight i have on the rear wheel it really does go well.
My maget rotor is a very rough design with angled magnets for a wind turbine, but a decent magnet rotor and perfect hall sensor location i feel these motors will really do well,especially for the DIY person.
I guess 2 to 3kw.
I will be posting a video soon to show what that rear wheel can do for a cheap recycled motor.
The most expensive and complicated thing is the neo magnet rotor conversion.

Re-configuring in parallel is not that hard as left wires on ph1 are connected to a ring and so on for other phases and the right wire of all phases is soldered to another comman ring.


???How much does the hall location affect the motors performance, i guess greatly, as in reverse my motor has much more go compared to forwards. look at pics below.
Will be experimenting with different and possibly variable hall locations soon, but whatever the case the motor still really goes well, even when running badly.

By the way the magnet rotor spins clockwise looking at the picutre.

F&Pcloseup1.JPG (59.42 KiB) Viewed 1370 times

Matt F&P

[enoob]

i do like the look of that stator . im gonna have to call my appliance guy and see what he knows.

from what im learning about hall sensors where and how they are placed will greatly affect performance. I was drowning at digikey but got some help from a member here and then i got smart and asked kelly what works best with their motor controller and they sent me here. http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products ... ipolar.asp
bonus is they have outlets here in bc and in OZ from what ive just seen

its a good read and seems for our application a bipolar version in the correct position for the given application will work splendidly.

[F&P]

I think LG and F&P make these motors and others are following. There are plenty here laying around in OZ and NZ but shipping may not make it cost effective. F&P had bad electronics but the motor does not fail, this is why there are so many laying around, some only a few years old.

My newest idea is too use 2 or even 3 stators with the plastic ground down on one side, so that the laminates are basically touching each other. made up ana daptor to hold each together, Remove all wire and rewire with maybe 10 strands of small wire (per wire) all in series per phase with about 10 or so turns.
It would then be about 80mm (4") wide. I would need to make up a complete new magnet rotor using 80mm / 10mm / 6mm neos.
Or just use one motor per wheel.

Matt
F&P

[Storm]

I'm really looking for a sensorless controller as I would like to use it for an aircraft. Surely it can handle more than 2KW!!, I have a simmilar but smaller goldenmotor w/alloy side plates (see avatar) and regularly run 2Kw on my trike and it barely warms. The GM the magnets are very thin and the coils are less than half the wind compared to the F&P.

[enoob]

I'm really looking for a sensorless controller as I would like to use it for an aircraft. Surely it can handle more than 2KW!!, I have a simmilar but smaller goldenmotor w/alloy side plates (see avatar) and regularly run 2Kw on my trike and it barely warms. The GM the magnets are very thin and the coils are less than half the wind compared to the F&P.

id love to see that . id bet this would work rather good https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?m ... uct_id=736 120v versions too

ive been rather impressed with the back and forth ive had with the folks at kelly . and since that controller was made for fans , not to different from what your looking for .

with methods and others running 100v 100amp through hub motors id bet that little beast could handle it.

[F&P]

Yes I feel the same. The first thing to let go would be the plastic magnet rotor spline though. I have many different F&P motors around and can afford to sacrafice a couple for science.

I will be getting a 18Fet controller soon which should beef it up a bit especialy with the IRFB4110 fets, but have also been looking at the Kelly controllers as they seem well priced and possibly high quality and all with higher current ratings.

At the moment I am happy with the power (48V / 48A Infineon) and will give it a few good test runs out on an open country road to see what it is capable of, after all I get my thrills on my Honda B-bird CBR1100, but more power would always be good.

See youtube link below of the trike spinning the rear wheel in reverse and then forwards on our bituman driveway with a nobby BMX tyre. I just measured a weight of 35kg at the back wheel, sorry about metric.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvnUxPbOTQ

Matt
F&P

[enoob]

that ride didnt look like it was made of carbon fibre

this thread showing it may be possible to rebuild it sold me on the kelly . viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12468&hilit=kelly+naked+all+washed+up

As its the same price as a decent rc controller and im not trying to make the lightest bike on the planet it should do good.

can you get a shot of the rotor spline on a shaft ? this group may be able to help design a bolt on collar that would prevent a problem there.

[F&P]

Hi Guys,

Heres some close up pics of the F&P stator and shaft spline and magnet rotor spline.

If anyone has an idea of how we could make up a aluminium magnet rotor with a steel magnet keeper inside at about 3mm or so, that would be great as we can get these stators no problem and Im sure we could source
56 x 40mm/10mm/6mm Neos cheap.
That way this thing could really go well at over 5kw I imagine, but then you would start to put excessive loads on the stator which is also a plastic moulded unit. Some have cracks from being pounded in a washing machine, but when used as a wind turbine or a EV motor I have had no more cracks appear even when doing reverse and forwards wheel spins. But when you get 5 or so Kw's running through one, then things start to get loaded. The stainless 1", 30mm shaft would have no issues I feel, they are about 350mm long and I have cut mine down to mount the BMX wheel close.

The Neo magnet rotors I have made are nothing special at all and i just used surplus magnets I have laying around for about 2c each x 224 = $4.50. They are too skinny and I had to use 4 per pole to get the correct size x 56 = 224 Mini neo magnets in total. Not the best way to do it, but as you can see it still goes great, so things can only get better really.

Finally, you could even put two stators together and rewire them as one stator to get twice the width, a bit of quick machining off the plastic and a centre splacer. I have rewired a few differnt 3 Ph motors and its not hard, actually very rewarding.

stator&axle spline.JPG (95.66 KiB) Viewed 1335 times

F&Pmagnet spline.JPG (79.53 KiB) Viewed 1201 times

To take the wheel and shaft out, you just need to take off the large nut in the middle and it slides out and bearings can be replaced in minutes. You could also have another axle that could be changed in minutes that has a different drive like a boat prop etc???
The magnet rotor comes off using the plastic hand nut on the end of the magnet rotor which makes it easier to get it off, especially with the neos. The stator also has 4 bolts and can be removed in under a minute. basically you can completely dissasemble the motor in about 2 to 3 minutes.

F&Pshaftcloseup.JPG (71.66 KiB) Viewed 1202 times

Matt
F&P

[enoob]

hhmm . more i look at that thing the more i like it.

well out of the gate i think the first thing id try would be to make a disk of steel that is the same diameter of the the one recessed and bolted to the stator . machine the centre to match the splines on the shaft and bond/bolt it to the rotor. wouldnt have to be to thick just enough to add some steel in there to help out the plastic a bit. looks like that lip just outside the bolts on the stator is wearing on the rotor ? if so id just make my disk a tad smaller or go the other way and make it even bigger and take it to the existing holes on the rotor use them to bolt through and grind down that lip on the stator a bit.

course this all depends on whats on the flip side of that rotor . from the other photos is looks possible ?

IF i havent said it already , nice work man . keep goin.

[F&P]

The wearing is due to the ends of the bolts touching the rotor as I have something left out, washer.
That steel idea sounds ok, but i would really like to start with a complete new rotor,will see how things go.
It runs fine for now so will just let it go and keep pumping more amps into it until something breaks.

F&P
Matt.