Fisher and Paykel motors

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors and hall location

Postby F&P » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:09 am

Hi All,

Yes have been experimenting with the F&P washing machine motors, first as wind turbines and then even using a 1mm motor in parallel as a welder at about 2500rpm, worked great though a big rectifier.

They can be re-configured in many different ways and there are 3 different motors all in series from factory for higher voltages.

They work well with a decent brushless motor controller like the infineon, but you will most likley need to convert the ferrite magnet rotor to rare earth neo mags for much extra power, as I did for a wind turbine.
the first motor i used as a motor again was a 1mm (wire) motor in parellel, measuring about .1 Ohm, way too much load for most controllers and I now use a .8mm motor in parallel measuring about .4 ohm.

They really do work great and for how much weight i have on the rear wheel it really does go well.
My maget rotor is a very rough design with angled magnets for a wind turbine, but a decent magnet rotor and perfect hall sensor location i feel these motors will really do well,especially for the DIY person.
I guess 2 to 3kw.
I will be posting a video soon to show what that rear wheel can do for a cheap recycled motor.
The most expensive and complicated thing is the neo magnet rotor conversion.

Re-configuring in parallel is not that hard as left wires on ph1 are connected to a ring and so on for other phases and the right wire of all phases is soldered to another comman ring.


???How much does the hall location affect the motors performance, i guess greatly, as in reverse my motor has much more go compared to forwards. look at pics below.
Will be experimenting with different and possibly variable hall locations soon, but whatever the case the motor still really goes well, even when running badly.

By the way the magnet rotor spins clockwise looking at the picutre.

F&Pcloseup1.JPG
F&Pcloseup1.JPG (59.42 KiB) Viewed 1375 times


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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby enoob » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:19 pm

i do like the look of that stator . im gonna have to call my appliance guy and see what he knows.

from what im learning about hall sensors where and how they are placed will greatly affect performance. I was drowning at digikey but got some help from a member here and then i got smart and asked kelly what works best with their motor controller and they sent me here. http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products ... ipolar.asp
bonus is they have outlets here in bc and in OZ from what ive just seen

its a good read and seems for our application a bipolar version in the correct position for the given application will work splendidly.
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby F&P » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:22 pm

I think LG and F&P make these motors and others are following. There are plenty here laying around in OZ and NZ but shipping may not make it cost effective. F&P had bad electronics but the motor does not fail, this is why there are so many laying around, some only a few years old.

My newest idea is too use 2 or even 3 stators with the plastic ground down on one side, so that the laminates are basically touching each other. made up ana daptor to hold each together, Remove all wire and rewire with maybe 10 strands of small wire (per wire) all in series per phase with about 10 or so turns.
It would then be about 80mm (4") wide. I would need to make up a complete new magnet rotor using 80mm / 10mm / 6mm neos.
Or just use one motor per wheel.

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby Storm » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:48 pm

I'm really looking for a sensorless controller as I would like to use it for an aircraft. Surely it can handle more than 2KW!!, I have a simmilar but smaller goldenmotor w/alloy side plates (see avatar) and regularly run 2Kw on my trike and it barely warms. The GM the magnets are very thin and the coils are less than half the wind compared to the F&P.
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby enoob » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:39 pm

Storm wrote:I'm really looking for a sensorless controller as I would like to use it for an aircraft. Surely it can handle more than 2KW!!, I have a simmilar but smaller goldenmotor w/alloy side plates (see avatar) and regularly run 2Kw on my trike and it barely warms. The GM the magnets are very thin and the coils are less than half the wind compared to the F&P.

:) :)

id love to see that . id bet this would work rather good https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?m ... uct_id=736 120v versions too :)

ive been rather impressed with the back and forth ive had with the folks at kelly . and since that controller was made for fans , not to different from what your looking for .

with methods and others running 100v 100amp through hub motors id bet that little beast could handle it.
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby F&P » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:24 pm

Yes I feel the same. The first thing to let go would be the plastic magnet rotor spline though. I have many different F&P motors around and can afford to sacrafice a couple for science.

I will be getting a 18Fet controller soon which should beef it up a bit especialy with the IRFB4110 fets, but have also been looking at the Kelly controllers as they seem well priced and possibly high quality and all with higher current ratings.

At the moment I am happy with the power (48V / 48A Infineon) and will give it a few good test runs out on an open country road to see what it is capable of, after all I get my thrills on my Honda B-bird CBR1100, but more power would always be good.

See youtube link below of the trike spinning the rear wheel in reverse and then forwards on our bituman driveway with a nobby BMX tyre. I just measured a weight of 35kg at the back wheel, sorry about metric.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvnUxPbOTQ

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby enoob » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:33 am

that ride didnt look like it was made of carbon fibre :wink:

this thread showing it may be possible to rebuild it sold me on the kelly . viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12468&hilit=kelly+naked+all+washed+up

As its the same price as a decent rc controller and im not trying to make the lightest bike on the planet it should do good.

can you get a shot of the rotor spline on a shaft ? this group may be able to help design a bolt on collar that would prevent a problem there.
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Re: Fisher and Paykel close-up motor pics

Postby F&P » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:28 pm

Hi Guys,

Heres some close up pics of the F&P stator and shaft spline and magnet rotor spline.

If anyone has an idea of how we could make up a aluminium magnet rotor with a steel magnet keeper inside at about 3mm or so, that would be great as we can get these stators no problem and Im sure we could source
56 x 40mm/10mm/6mm Neos cheap.
That way this thing could really go well at over 5kw I imagine, but then you would start to put excessive loads on the stator which is also a plastic moulded unit. Some have cracks from being pounded in a washing machine, but when used as a wind turbine or a EV motor I have had no more cracks appear even when doing reverse and forwards wheel spins. But when you get 5 or so Kw's running through one, then things start to get loaded. The stainless 1", 30mm shaft would have no issues I feel, they are about 350mm long and I have cut mine down to mount the BMX wheel close.

The Neo magnet rotors I have made are nothing special at all and i just used surplus magnets I have laying around for about 2c each x 224 = $4.50. They are too skinny and I had to use 4 per pole to get the correct size x 56 = 224 Mini neo magnets in total. Not the best way to do it, but as you can see it still goes great, so things can only get better really.

Finally, you could even put two stators together and rewire them as one stator to get twice the width, a bit of quick machining off the plastic and a centre splacer. I have rewired a few differnt 3 Ph motors and its not hard, actually very rewarding.

stator&axle spline.JPG
stator&axle spline.JPG (95.66 KiB) Viewed 1340 times


F&Pmagnet spline.JPG
F&Pmagnet spline.JPG (79.53 KiB) Viewed 1206 times


To take the wheel and shaft out, you just need to take off the large nut in the middle and it slides out and bearings can be replaced in minutes. You could also have another axle that could be changed in minutes that has a different drive like a boat prop etc???
The magnet rotor comes off using the plastic hand nut on the end of the magnet rotor which makes it easier to get it off, especially with the neos. The stator also has 4 bolts and can be removed in under a minute. basically you can completely dissasemble the motor in about 2 to 3 minutes.

F&Pshaftcloseup.JPG
F&Pshaftcloseup.JPG (71.66 KiB) Viewed 1207 times


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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby enoob » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:55 pm

hhmm . more i look at that thing the more i like it.

well out of the gate i think the first thing id try would be to make a disk of steel that is the same diameter of the the one recessed and bolted to the stator . machine the centre to match the splines on the shaft and bond/bolt it to the rotor. wouldnt have to be to thick just enough to add some steel in there to help out the plastic a bit. looks like that lip just outside the bolts on the stator is wearing on the rotor ? if so id just make my disk a tad smaller or go the other way and make it even bigger and take it to the existing holes on the rotor use them to bolt through and grind down that lip on the stator a bit.

course this all depends on whats on the flip side of that rotor . from the other photos is looks possible ?

IF i havent said it already , nice work man . keep goin.
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby F&P » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:49 am

The wearing is due to the ends of the bolts touching the rotor as I have something left out, washer.
That steel idea sounds ok, but i would really like to start with a complete new rotor,will see how things go.
It runs fine for now so will just let it go and keep pumping more amps into it until something breaks.

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby John in CR » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:36 am

Has anyone tried rewinding one of these stators? It looks like there's room for a lot more copper fill to create an extremely powerful motor. Also, how many magnets are needed for a neo rotor?
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby amberwolf » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:15 am

I *really* wish I could find one of those things around here.

I'll just have to see what the cieling fan motor will do once I get it back from Karma. :)
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby F&P » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:01 am

I have not heard of anyone rewinding them but just reconfiguring them as they are in series from factory and have a high voltage low amp arrangement.
I do have a stripped down stator so i could rewire it and now I might use maybe 8 strands of small wire and wind about say 10 turns and work out the resistance from there.
There is a fair amount of copper as the top of the stator laminate is larger then the centre if that makes sense??.

There are 56 magnets needed (28nth, 28 sth).
The ferrite versions look like they have 14 magnets but these are actually 4 magnets per ferrite lump. Some older magnet rotors used crappy neos but only at about 3mm.

Remember you can buy them complete or just a stator even reconfigured in parallel for cheapish from NZ, but shipping may not make it worth it.
The link below is to Ecoinnovation in new zealand, you can buy three new complete F&P motors for $300 but shipping to the states is around $250, to australia is around $90. Maybe you could elect for slower cheaper shipping.
I will see how many stators I have around and might be able to part with one or two, but shipping still.

http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/c-60-kits.aspx

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby amberwolf » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:30 am

Oh, I know I could *buy* some, but I need to be able to *find* them, such as discards, before I can afford them. ;) I've already spent far more money than I can really afford on "deals I could not pass up" in the last couple of months, and it's leaving me hungry (literally). I'm still planning on looking around at repair shops and whatnot for scrapped motors, but not expecting to be able to do that for a while yet.

In the future, assuming my economic situation improves, I would probably be able to find a local source of the motors for a reasonable price, if I don't find scrapped ones first.

EDIT (ADDED): I don't have time to work on them, anyway, right now, and anticipate it'll be months before I would, at best. :) I'm just really liking the way those things look for repurposing. ;)
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby AussieJester » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:44 am

If you can find cheap shipping i can get these F&P motors for free Amberwolf...

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby Storm » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:03 pm

Looking at mine (I think an 80s) it has a fair space for more winds. I've reconfigured for a windmill 7phse but I think I would prefer a motor. I'm willing to rewire(it would be my first) but what size wire should I use?
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby F&P » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:34 am

Hi Guys,

That's the way Kim,
I also had a repairer who would drop off all his F&P tubs complete with motórs in my front yard, they are literally everywhere overhere. I moved and lost contact sadly.
So as kim mentioned, I'm sure you could work out a slow cheap shipping method somehow if Kim has a good contact.

Strom: If you have a 80 series (most comman.8mm) I found that putting every coil per phase in parallel with each other works very well. This means cutting evey wire you see, dividing them into groups of say Phase1-Left-side-wire x 14, and Phase1-right-side-wire x 14, and then onto Phase 2 and so on until you end up with 6 groups. you can solder each group onto 6 rings of copper cable as i have done or the same but in only star with no easy delta option, meaning all phase 1, 2 & 3 wires of say the left wires of all coils are joined to a comman ring, as with my motor in pics and video.
Rewiring them completely would not really gain that much more I thought but maybe I'm wrong.

If I was going to do go that way, I would go for about .1 to .2mm x 6 to 8 strands per say wire, and maybe around 6 to 10 windings depending on how may you can fit, remembering to allow for the other 2 phases.
This would be done in series.
??? Any suggestions on my theory, as I already have a stripped down stator free of copper ready to a rewind, as an experiment.

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby amberwolf » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:49 am

AussieJester wrote:If you can find cheap shipping i can get these F&P motors for free Amberwolf...

KiM

I appreciate the offer, but cheap shipping from Australia to Arizona is kind of like the square root of negative 1. ;) (an imaginary number)

I did a quick check with a few carriers using 30 pounds and 24" x 24" x 24", sending from my address to your area, and I get wildly varying rates:
DHL: $814
USPS: $175
Fedex: $641
UPS: $641

I have a feeling that the USPS quote is probably wrong, since it's so far off of the others. Can't imagine their rates would be that much less for international shipping....

Even at that "low" rate, it is not only more than I could afford, it is more than it is worth to me, at least right now. :)
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby AussieJester » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:06 am

Dont stress Amber...enoob Thud and myself are working on it buddy they have asked
for the stators only so the weight will be minimal, my mate was meant too be by this arvo but
wasn't able to make it, we are heading to the Boxing Day Drag meet together to watch the Nitro Funny Cars run
so will discuss it with him then, he has told me several times all i need to do is give him the nod when i want them and he will start putting them aside, as F&P mentioned they are everywhere here, by all accounts they are crap machines (the electrics) and are 'binned' when they break in favour (cheaper) to buy new than fix...I actually went too school with the owner of the repair company my mate now works for (he was a grade below me) He actually went on to be a teacher at the school for 10 years before pulling the plug and buying the company in question
... small world it is...

Due to this time of the year though i gather progress will be a lil slower im not sure how long my mates off over christmas will let you fellas know soon as i know though...

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:34 am

amberwolf wrote:
AussieJester wrote:If you can find cheap shipping i can get these F&P motors for free Amberwolf...

KiM

I appreciate the offer, but cheap shipping from Australia to Arizona is kind of like the square root of negative 1. ;) (an imaginary number)

I did a quick check with a few carriers using 30 pounds and 24" x 24" x 24", sending from my address to your area, and I get wildly varying rates:
DHL: $814
USPS: $175
Fedex: $641
UPS: $641

I have a feeling that the USPS quote is probably wrong, since it's so far off of the others. Can't imagine their rates would be that much less for international shipping....

Even at that "low" rate, it is not only more than I could afford, it is more than it is worth to me, at least right now. :)



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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby Storm » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:52 am

Image
See there is way more room for copper, I could stick my finger in there!!

I'm not sure the multi strand vs single makes much difference, would you go larger than 1mm or smaller than .6, I guess it depends on the characteistics required, Am I right saying small wire and more turns = higher KV?

what controller would I use or how would I connect up the 6phase as you commented on above to a three phase controller?

As windmills I think they are probably better parallel but most PM motors I see are wired in series, parrallel gives less resistance(lower heat/higher current), why choose series??
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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby Jeremy Harris » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:43 am

Am I right saying small wire and more turns = higher KV?


Fewer turns = higher Kv, more turns = lower Kv

The only good reason for using multistrand wire (at the switching frequencies a motor like this will run at) is the ease of winding it, you will get more copper on by using a single strand of thick wire, but it gets hard work to wind. Anything over about 1.2mm diameter (18g) wire is hard to wind in a confined space. It may be that the size of the stator on these F&P motors makes winding a bit easier, particularly as the gaps between the stator poles look to be pretty wide.

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby liveforphysics » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:26 am

Jeremy- Do you have any insight for us on what happens as the coil increases radius during winding and the wire moves further from the iron? Does a greater amount of those outer most wrapping layers flux become lost similar to the large(r) amount of end winding flux that becomes lost?

In other words, in a motor with an extreme gap between stator teeth like this example, would the best solution always be to do anything possible to get as high of copper fill percentage in the gaps, or is there a point where the additional resistance of the winding outweighs the flux gained due to the increased distance from the iron? Part of me wants to think most all of the flux in the wires there will get captured reguardless of the radius from the iron, and another part of me thinks the outside flux would have a much greater chance of being lost than used... :oops:

Help me understand my friend! :)

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby F&P » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:54 am

Just waiting up for santa to come so I can go to bed, kids.

As for shipping, if ecoinnovation in NZ can ship 3 complete motors to US for $250 then the cheaper quote sounds correct.

You always end up with 6 wires on a 3 phase motor or alternator, as each phase needs to have 2 wires (start and end) and there are 3 phases = 6, but 3 are either connected to other phases for delta or 3 are all joined together for star. In the end, you end up with 3 wires as a standard 3 phase motor or alternator, and most controllers can work with this.

As they are .8mm motors and in series they are no good at voltages below 200V and amps above 5A.
This is why I go for all coils of each phase in parallel to decrease the resistance and increase the current carrying capacity.
This is as done in wind turbines also when using a standard F&P.

The reason I would go for multi strand wire is to get a decent amount of copper on the stator witout having to paralell each coil, as you would go for just series which is much easier to wind etc, especially with smaller gauge wire.
If you used the standard .8m or 1mm wire, you would only gain a bit more copper but still have to go for parallel, if you go for say 4 to 6 strands of maybe .4mm wire, it would give you much more current capacity in series.

Again, the only reason for parallel is for use for wind turbines etc charging a 24 V battery bank or using them as DC motors is that you can push much amps into them and out of them for lower voatge abtttery bank in the range of 24V to 72V.
Eg: Standard .8mm stator with neos = 300V at 200rpm at 4amps in standard series, compared to say 30V at 200rpm at 40Amps.
The wattage is the same.
300V x 4A = 1200Watts
30V x 40A = 1200Watts, and useable with a 48V to 72V battery bank.

Shipping a complete stripped down motor with a semi cut down shaft at 300mm, would only be about 1 cubic ft if that helps.

Re: Question regarding copper away from laminate area. I feel that F&P would have done a lot of research on this and maybe as you mentioned if you add more copper it might just get wasted anyway??

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Re: Fisher and Paykel motors

Postby bigmoose » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:38 am

The EcoInnovation site said:

" The motors from Whirlpool also go on the Maytag brand of machines and are identical to the F&P Smart Drive parts 60dc series made in the USA by F&P for Whirlpool.

Would this imply that these F&P motors are lurking in Maytag and Whirlpool washers in the USA? I also find this layout interesting to perhaps play with. Would be interesting to find a surplus US source...

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