TTXGP

[frodus]

i think the motocysz E1 was using a123 packs.

I think you're wrong

[bearing]

Modern LiPo has got about twice the volumetric density compared to A123, so the savings in space on by using LiPo are huge on these bikes.

[voicecoils]

I'll have a punt.

Motoczysz used K2 cells.

Still bound by that NDA Frodus?

[frodus]

I can't say what they are.... so yes, still bound.... that's what an NDA is... can't say shit once you leave.

Just wanted to say the reason they're NOT a123 cells.... not dense enough.


I'm done though, can't say anything else, you guys will rattle off all the names of the batteries....lol

[frodus]

from another forum, my friend Loni (magellan).... and technician for the MotoCzysz E1

Our failure to reach the podium was the result of a locked-up motor slightly more than 3 miles from the start line. Damn. But that's racing. Just ask John McGuinness!

[Battboy]

Frodus, do you know what Motor they were using? What happened to the Kingston bike was we smoked the Agni motor 4 miles out in the final race? Just curious if they also had the Agni?

[frodus]

Yes, they had 3 Agni's....

[Battboy]

Hmmmmm......wonder about the other bikes that didn't make it now? How many total bikes were running Agni's? Anybody know?

[frodus]

Agni (of course)
Kingston University
MotoCzysz

[added]
Brunell
Tork

There might have been other entrants, those are the ones I know of.

[liveforphysics]

Perhaps Cedric's mounting location was more out of necessity than out of mounting simplicity.


What's seems so strange, is that these <5mile motor burn-up events weren't noted as a problem before shipping the machines to the Isle?

Seems like nobody gave them a proper flogging before sending them off to race.

With the ICE drag and road racing teams that I've been a crewchief for, I often encounter a mentality of "save it for the track", or "Don't break it before we get to race it".

This is the mentality that makes for a team that never wins, and wastes everyone's time and money.

The object is to push even harder than you could ever see it being pushed at the track, so you find the weak points, and the failure modes before the actual event. To test tranny and axel strength before an event, I put a 1,000lbs of sandbags in the car, and drag launch the piss out of it from clutch drops off the 2-step. Make sure it survives 100 launches with an extra 1,000lbs in the car, and then you have a pretty good idea it's not going to break on raceday with a much lighter car. If I'm going to set the rev-limiter on an engine at 9,500rpm, then it's means I've pulled the engine to 10,500rpm a hundred times, and know it's going to be able to handle 9,500 safely. Same with fuel. Tune on the hottest day you can find, with a weak fan blowing on the dyno, and 1 fuel grade below what you will be running for the race. If you get your tune dialed in for those conditions, then you know even if you get some freak super hot weather at the event, you know you are safe.

All mechanical/electrical things will give you suprizes. As a crewchief, if I do my job properly, I get those suprizes/failures to all show themselves on our private time, and not after the team reserves hotel rooms and trailers the car halfway across the country, only to sit broken in the pits.

To win races, you gotta finish races. The key to finishing a race is to beat and abuse every part of the vehicle with stress well beyond what it should ever see during the event it was made to run.

[Malcolm]

The key to finishing a race is to beat and abuse every part of the vehicle with stress well beyond what it should ever see during the event it was made to run.

You make good points, but I think it's fair to say that most of the competitors were EV enthusiasts/engineers rather than racers. This was the first event of its type and it attracted a lot of amateurs (in the true sense of the word – someone who loves what they're doing). Cedric knew enough about his motor to make sure it had plenty of passive cooling to maximise the duty cycle. There were doubtless lots of lessons learned, and I hope every team will be back next year with the ambition of demonstrating that. I'm looking forward to the next one already and intend to be there to soak it up.

[frodus]

I think the organization for this whole race was a major contributing factor. While its true that they started to publicize the event over a year ago, they didn't go to too many media outlets to get it published. They had no bikes to show off (until the TTX01 last fall). Most entrants that raced didn't really get started on things until aug/sept/oct of last year... and for some of them, they started this year and the paint was barely dry on the bikes before they went to the island. the IOM TT is one of the most taxing races in the world... for year 1, its not too bad. All the teams know what they need to do now... thats for sure.

If there was more dev time, i'm sure things would have gone differently. The Enertia, Kingston and Mission one all had major changes the last month or two of design.... and very little time to test the changes. EV controllers and motors are well proven in a normal commuter environment, but not so much in a racing environment. I expected more problems with batteries than I did with motors.

We'll be seeing more liquid cooled AC or BLDC motors in racing next year thats for sure.

[Tiberius]

...and not after the team .. trailers ... halfway across the country, only to sit broken in the pits.

To win races, you gotta finish races. The key to finishing a race is to beat and abuse every part of the vehicle with stress well beyond what it should ever see during the event it was made to run.

LOL. I used to go hovercraft racing and learned about this. At one meeting a newbie asked me why I wasn't frantically fixing my craft like everyone else. I told him I used to be like that when I started, but now I do it before the meeting.

Nick

[Jay64]

Regen is something that SEEMS like a good idea to electrical guys building a bike, who have never known what it's like to push hard on a superbike. Trying to use that rear tire to slow the bike in any situation is just going to result in taking an entirely wrong breaking line, and likely end up leaving you will less net battery power from leaving you with lower exit speeds (and hence more need for acceleration energy from the pack) from your compromised line.

Well, as a professional motorcycle racer who has raced superbikes in the AMA, I have to disagree with this. ALL pro riders, even MotoGP riders, use the rear tire to slow the bike down. Engine braking is a HUGE part of slowing down. Have you ever been pushing an ICE bike to the limit, trying to brake as late as possible, and hit a false neutral while going into the corner? It feels like your bike just gained 20mph even though your pressure on the brakes never changed. Most riders who hit a false neutral going into a hard corner end up running off the track. That was one of my biggest concerns with trying to build a high performance e race bike. I was worried that I would have to radically change my braking markers if I didn't have engine braking. But then I heard about regen. As a pro racer, I believe that regen will be a huge benefit to riding styles. There are even a lot of pro riders who use a lot of rear brakes for slowing the bike down. Granted, you are not going to be getting a lot of energy return from rear regen on a bike, but if the results of using regen help you to ride faster, AND you get a tiny bit of energy return, why not use it?

[liveforphysics]

Yep, the engine provides more than enough slowing force on the rear wheel, and most importantly, it doesn't risk it from stopping spinning in the event it leaves the ground, which instantly looses all gyroscopic stabilization keeping the bike from pivoting around on the front wheel.

I don't doubt that you use a stab of the rear brake for a split second now and then to help setup a corner transition or shift weight. There are a hundred different riding styles out there that all work great. But it's not the sort of thing you can count on to be returning any useful energy amount to your pack to the degree you can plan on getting by with a smaller pack size.

I downloaded a great video interview with the fastest lap record holder for the TT. They go over the bike in detail with him, and they discuss what is different on these bikes from a normal superbike. One of the interesting things they showed was the lack of foot brake pedal, and it's replacement being a tiny thumb lever on the clutch side. I had never seen anything like that before. Then he goes on to say that the rear brake is only used there to enable more precise wheelie elevation control while accelerating without needing to let off the throttle at all, and having it on the foot position offers less sensitivity and control than the thumb provides.

But, different tracks and different riders of course all need different riding technique. I hope the regen setup works out to be super awesome for your setup!

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[regmeister]

deleted
_

[dnmun]

is the regen limit simply a function of how fast you can push the charge back into the battery? the resistance of the cells to large charging currents?

if that is the limit and the MIT paper from last year about the nonstoicheometric lifepo4 allows the battery makers to build new designs with the improved cathodic granules then that would allow charging at up to 10-15C levels.

at that point the battery will be acting more like a large capacitor than battery, but maybe still not fast enuff if you need to depend on it for braking. it will be interesting to see how this works.

[frodus]

Its wattage load. If the bats will take 5000W of energy, then it'll load the motor 5000W.

[tailwind]

Article from Popular Mechanics on the TTXGP entries.

"Top 7 Electric Motorcycles at the TTX GP—And How They Work"

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/motorsports/4321786.html

Alas, not all the secrets are revealed.

PS. Get well soon Travis.

Greg

[jonescg]

So, with this years TTX-GP apparently at odds with the Isle of Man, what will come of it in the future?

Motorsport is always plagued with stories of "May not run this year..." or "Max Mosley spits the dummy..." sort of thing, and the racing goes on as always most of the time, so should we be worried?

I for one am worried about the high cost of entering the TTX-GP, the lack of an Australian heat (early days, I know, but getting the bike to the other side of the world is a LOT of cash for backyard innovators like me ) and the small prize money. However, unless they keep the rules pretty open and the entry fees low, we won't get the tecnological development we really need for the EV world.


So does anyone in the know have any clarification of the UK TTX-GP, or is the Electric Isle of Man race a thing of history?

Uninformed opinons welcome, of course

[paultrafalgar]

Much to my annoyance, I discovered yesterday (Sunday) that the race had happened last Thursday (10th). See for example:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/electric-bikes/
Edit:
But this is a better site:
http://www.egrandprix.com/