Astro 3210 group buy?

[mud2005]

3210chart.jpg (248.9 KiB) Viewed 820 times

[etard]

I'm not really understanding that chart. I need something that will compare outputs at certain voltages, like 10s or 12s. I am willing to figure out the gear reduction based on the motor performance. Does this make sense? Also, I want to know where the sweet spot each motor will like, and then coordinate my gearing accordingly. I would also prefer to have six wires exiting for delta/wye. And it would be nice to have the option to add sensors at a later date when they become available. It would really be slick if Astro Bob could market this as an upgrade to the motors already produced, so that all his loyal first adopters could reap the benefit of this as well. Or maybe someone here could devise a simple solution. I am sure there are many that would gladly pay extra to avoid sync issues.

[Miles]

etard,

Just multiply the Kv figure by the voltage that you want to use, to get the no load speed. The power shaft value will obviously go up or down, as you move away from the nominal voltage for a specific winding.

NB: Kv figure for the 24 turn winding should read 57 rpm/Volt

[liveforphysics]

If somebody gets BigMoose a picture of the rotor/magnet layout, he will give the sensor positions needed for Delta or Wye operation. Combine that with Miles CAD work for a board layout, and Gary's board printing connections, and we can have a sensor retro-fit done ourselves without waiting on Bob for who knows how many years. lol

Combine with the IRF 4110 fitted 6-fet programable infinion controllers the size of a creditcard, and you've got yourself a 100v sensored drive solution for a fraction of the cost of a castle ESC.

[drewjet]

If somebody gets BigMoose a picture of the rotor/magnet layout, he will give the sensor positions needed for Delta or Wye operation. Combine that with Miles CAD work for a board layout, and Gary's board printing connections, and we can have a sensor retro-fit done ourselves without waiting on Bob for who knows how many years. lol

Combine with the IRF 4110 fitted 6-fet programable infinion controllers the size of a creditcard, and you've got yourself a 100v sensored drive solution for a fraction of the cost of a castle ESC.

Now that's what I am talking about.

I will try and get a pic of my 3220 today.

[recumpence]

I also agree sensored is the way to go, ultimately. Yes, Bob is at least willing to talk to me about his findings and what is going on with sensors. However, even I have been unable to get him going on it. I do know he does not particularly want to make the boards himself. But, he told me directly that he has an outside vendor that came up with a solution and is sending him a board to test. I do not know exactly what that meand time-wise, though. I would assume it is a llooooong time away. Anyway, I do not want to muddy up this thread with the sensor issue. Sensors are where we need to be for E-bike nirvana, for sure. However, the stadard Astro 3210 is just about perfect for our needs even with the sensorless issues. So, being that this is the closest we can come at this point, I can at least get us a group buy discount on them.

I am not 100% sure about all 6 wires exiting the can. Yes, I can get various winds (I cleared that with Bob yesterday). I do not want to convolute the whole thing with 30 different motor layouts in our order of 50 motors. Never-the-less, it may not be a big deal for Bob. After all, these motors are hand assembled and hand wound. A few winding differences is not a big deal. What I do not want to have happen is---------------- "OK, Bob, I want 1 motor with silver can, double shafts, 5 turn, 6 wire. Next I want a black can, 5 turn, single shaft, 6 wire. After that, I want 3 motors 7 turn singles shaft, silver can, 3 wires." You know what I mean? Part of the group buy thing is making it easier for the manufacturer. Various turns is fine and I may be able to talk Bob into exiting 6 wires on some motors. But, I do not want to push my luck with too many differences. Actually, what may be best is ,once we have all motors spoken for, I can send Bob a list and quietly sneak a few into that list that specify 6 wire. He will be so happy to have a large order like this that he may not care at that point.


Matt

[JEB]

Matt: You are right, maybe this is a good time to start a 3210 hall sensor thread- what I don't understand (is a lot) about using fixed hall devices that latch as to the start and stop of the timed power pulse that it is the correct lenght? as to the rotation of the width of the magnet and the wound magnetic laminations width.

As to say that the power pulse is to short, or too long, right starting point for maxium power, or efficienty . My thought was to have a external disk with the correct number of magnets embeded in it that could be timed to the best starting point (power on) then use something like a one shot ( 4538?) that could be ajusted to have the optimum width for turn off.

Is this just adding to many parts to what is now a simple solution that works?

Jim

[recumpence]

My thought was to have a external disk with the correct number of magnets embeded in it that could be timed to the best starting point (power on) then use something like a one shot ( 4538?) that could be ajusted to have the optimum width for turn off.

I had a conversation with Bigmoose this morning about this very thing. That would, indeed, be the most accurate way to implement halls on this motor.

At any rate, this should be discussed in another thread..........

Matt

[j3tch1u]

i'm down for one--8 turn, black. would like to have 6 wires out as well. btw, does anyone know which side of the rotor (and which side of the flat washer) the little wavy washer goes? dissassembled my 3210 to machine the shaft and forgot to take notes. what does that thing do anyways?

[mwkeefer]

Matt,

Im thinking the 2 base windings would be sufficient (if you follow the various kV logic and possible reduction style setups, they would work in all cases) and if the 6 phase wires can be brought out as the "stock" option than the kV can be varied by 1.73 (yep and the power I know) so we would in effect have 4 base kV levels and 2 different power ranges.

Since it is so easy to simply take three of the phase lines and tie them together right at the motor to create wye termination and delta isn't any harder really... it just opens alot of potential for the application which otherwise would require the consumer to open the motor - somthing most people wouldn't be comfortable with (Id even be a little hinky about it, worried I would not get it back together properly... this is an Astro afterall not my crappy towerpro).

With regard to hall sensors - sadly I don't have the Astro motor yet but I have done the Halls 2 ways (thanks to Jermey Harris for the initial idea) on my tower pro models... I have embedded @ 120 degrees 3 smt halls and I have created a PCB which bolts over the back to mount 3 halls, then I used a flat lipped 8mm prop mount (I think that's what it was) to embed the magnets in the proper location and attach to the shaft... timing can be adjusted by loostening the set screw on the magnet disc and spinning it in either direction. My newer PCB design (not made yet) will support 2 center halls (one above and one below the PCB) so that Delta/Wye can be flipped without needing to invert the center hall, it's already there in inverted mode, just switching the center hall source will handle the adjustment of hall angle.

I should think that if I enlarge the bore on the PCB to handle the Astro that we could use a similar magnetic disc on the shaft to trip the halls?

I am also looking at optical speed sensing... it seems this will allow for much cleaner and higher RPM monitoring of the speeds over hall sensors - I am only experimenting with this now using the std light interrupting disc method (I scrounged the parts from an old scooter I had laying around).

If I can find a true mechanical drawing of the Astro including shafts I will be happy to CAD up the PCB and source a magnet disc of some form or other for this purpose.

-Mike

PS: Sorry just saw the bit about discussed in another thread - when one is created or pointed out I will transplant above post.

[bigmoose]

Good job mwkeefer! Looks like you have the basis for the first external hall prototype! Well done, well done...

[recumpence]

Mike,

Bob has a prebuilt Hall board he is nearly ready to test right now. It even has a reverse switch on the board for reverse rotation running. So, it is moving close. That hall board is not cheap, though.

I think sensors will eventually happen. They have to. But, this buy is for sensorless motors. I think Bob is still a little way off form producing sensored motors in quantity.

I am waiting myself.

Matt

[JEB]

Look for a new thread on "E-Bike technical"

Adding sensors to a Astro 3210 motor

Jim

[mud2005]

quick summary of orders so far:

-3210's-

Miles - 1
Tiberius 1 - maybe 4
RWP - 2
Johnny24 - 1
Etard - 1
Mwkeefer - 2 maybe more
Drewjet - 1
Jeb - 1
Enoob - 1
Katou - 1
J3tch1u - 1
Slowbuild - 1
K-ray - 1
Addicted - 1
Kevo - 1
total - 17 - maybe more

-8150's-
LiteCycles - 1
total - 1

-3220's-

Burtie - 1
K-ray - 2
Flyinut - 1
Slowbuild - 1
MitchJi - 1
total - 6

will edit this list as more orders happen

[recumpence]

Cool, we are half way there, then.

Matt

[j3tch1u]

could we make the 1/2" shaft standard? i expect some of us are using gearboxes. after cutting a keyway and spline on the tiny 3/8" shaft i get this bad feeling.

a simple litmus test might be...if it bends or breaks when you stand on it, it's not strong enough. 1/2" would hold up a lot better when you're stomping on the cranks imho.

[recumpence]

Not on this run of motors. That would add cost (and weight). The whole point of this group buy is to get cost down. Plus a larger shaft makes the motor pulley or sprocket larger, so less reduction available. Remember, I have two 3220s belt driven together, then one of those 3220 3/8 inch shafts is driving the trike. That is 20hp peak with one 3/8 shaft. Now, honestly, I think 1/2 inch shafts would be best for a twin 3220 setup. But, for a single 3210, 3/8 is fine for the vast majority of applications.

I do understand your situation, though..........

Matt

[katou]

Only 15 down? Hmm, I think I need to go proselytize.

Katou

[recumpence]

Only 15 down? Hmm, I think I need to go proselytize.

Katou

Or order 15 more motors. '

Matt

[slowbuild]

count me in for a 10 turn Astro 3210 in black and I'm happy to pay in advance

[mwkeefer]

Matt,

Just a suggestion but wouldn't these Astros have application for model heli (3d), airplanes and 1/5th scale RC cars?

If so... and anyone knows some decent people from other forums - how about cross posting to get the order wrapped up faster (quick chance the non es member before this deal price to 325.00 and pass the savings along to us )__

Mostly kidding!

-Mike

[recumpence]

Matt,

Just a suggestion but wouldn't these Astros have application for model heli (3d), airplanes and 1/5th scale RC cars?

If so... and anyone knows some decent people from other forums - how about cross posting to get the order wrapped up faster (quick chance the non es member before this deal price to 325.00 and pass the savings along to us )__

Mostly kidding!

-Mike

Yes, I considered that. That may be a possibility. I am not 100% sure how Astro Flight would like me selling way below dealer cost, though (to the RC market). They know the bike market is a smaller niche. Also, I would like to keep this in the bike forum for now. If we do not have 30 motors spoken for in a week or so, I will cross post.

Matt

[redorblack]

I think this will probably be the motor for my Greenspeed Trike. As you have been reading Matt on the Bentrideronline forum, I've powered my Rans Wave with a hubmotor and LiFePo4, need to refill the coffers before doing this, so January at the earliest for me. Put me down as a tenative... don't want to be a commit and drop out type.

Want to run through my drivetrain with a 35-45mph max speed (35 is actually plenty... but have one stretch of road where 45 might be nice, but that is scary fast with potholes, especially in the dark), using 48v 10ah Headway pack I have and my 48v hub motor's controller if it won't smoke with this motor wanting to draw a bunch more juice than I need. If it'll work, I can save up for the motor, and probably your reduction to tie it in with.

[Capo_au]

I'm in a similar situation to redorblack, very interested in picking up a 3210 at this price but waiting on free time and funds.

Neither of which i will have for at least 3 weeks.

So for now you can chalk me up as an interested party, but nothing more.

[Tiberius]

I've been crunching the numbers on this motor and you might be interested in this plot.

Astro3210maxcontpwr.gif (10.23 KiB) Viewed 725 times

As I said, I like the way that Astro provide proper data, and apart from the odd typo, it all seems to be consistent. I've managed to extract this plot for operation at max continuous power. Its based on limiting the armature current to the recommended value. Obviously you can get higher peak power out, but the efficiency will drop and motor heating will be a problem.

For my particular application, I'm looking at continuous operation. This is pretty impressive performance, but its right on the borderline for what I need.

Nick