My first e-bike project log named: "P.O.S."

[def215]

my motor is fried.

i let a friend borrow it to go somewhere, which was around 4 miles away from where i was. the bike did its job, which was be a source of transportation. but when i got it back, it had 1 out of 8 of the series strings were dead at 0 volts. also, im guessing the motor was really hot(it was a summer day with the temperature in the 90's) also the rider outweighed me by about 80 lbs(im about 130 lbs.) so it was loaded way more than it was used to. because of that, one of the magnet wires came loose on the armature and shorted out against the motor magnets. it totally sucks but im not really mad, its a homebrew project and i expect this type of thing to happen. so the things on my list right now to do is a rewind on the motor and it should be it tip top shape again.

heres a pic to show you guys the extent of the damage:

fried to a crisp! :banana:

on a lighter note, i was able to revive the dead bank of batteries by breaking down that 6p bank, but it in 6s, and charging them with my sla chrager. when i did that, they sprung back up to 3.1 volts, and after that i put them on a lithium 1s charger and they charged them up back to life

so no EV grin for me in the meantime, only ICE machines for now:

[amberwolf]

I don't suppose said friend offered to help with repairs? One reason not to loan out stuff.

[def215]

yeah, the friend did offer to pay for repairs so that was cool. its just a simple rewind and it will be back running like a top

im not really mad that this happened, i really was just expecting something like this to happen everytime i took it out for a ride. but the one time i dont take it out and let someone else ride it, it happens

[amberwolf]

Well, that's good (the offer); I've had stuff broken (or lost) that I loaned out, with no offer to do anything about it. When I've broken stuff I offer to repair/replace it, most often they turn me down, having loaned me the old worn-out tool in the first place.

I guess it's different if it is something you *expect* to break anyway, like a lot of stuff on CrazyBike2 I figured would fall off every time I started riding, but didn't. Also didn't break whenever I had other people ride it. (though most are afraid to get on it because it doesn't look/ride like a normal saddle-bike, and some because it looks like a pile of junk. )

[dequinox]

Sorry to hear about the motor man... I've been lucky with my currie brushed one so far...I've dumped upwards of 140 amps through a motor that's only supposed to take 40...and it's survived incredibly well. Good luck getting her running again!

[def215]

Well, that's good (the offer); I've had stuff broken (or lost) that I loaned out, with no offer to do anything about it. When I've broken stuff I offer to repair/replace it, most often they turn me down, having loaned me the old worn-out tool in the first place.

I guess it's different if it is something you *expect* to break anyway, like a lot of stuff on CrazyBike2 I figured would fall off every time I started riding, but didn't. Also didn't break whenever I had other people ride it. (though most are afraid to get on it because it doesn't look/ride like a normal saddle-bike, and some because it looks like a pile of junk. )

haha. yeah i expect things to just fall apart while riding, but the only things that will really do that is my tensioner, sprockets, or motor. the tensioners have fell apart on it before so i always keep an eye on them...lol

Sorry to hear about the motor man... I've been lucky with my currie brushed one so far...I've dumped upwards of 140 amps through a motor that's only supposed to take 40...and it's survived incredibly well. Good luck getting her running again!

thanks dequinox. ill have it running again in no time... the highest wattage ive put into my motor so far was about 20 amps, so my wattmeter claims...lol. yeah, it just sucks that a wire came loose inside of the motor from the heat and caused this. well, its time to build it better, faster and stronger than it was...lol

[def215]

so a rewind is underway, i started but i soon ran out of magnet wire. so that is on hold until i get it, which is tomorrow or the end of the week. heres what ive done so far:

another note to myself is that i should epoxy my windings back together so this cant happen again. i know theres super corona dope as enoob mentioned to me once in another thread, but is there something else i can use to stabilize my windings, epoxy maybe? this time im gonna wind it only 35 times opposed to the 37 i did the last time i did the rewind.
right now i took the drivechain off and been riding it around with pedal power, not at fun. but it just doesnt seem as fun as it was before.
it just seem so empty on the left-hand side

i might do a remagnetization too. im not sure on that one yet. i have broken a ceramic magnet and glued it back in there so only time will tell if i really should

it seems empty in there.

[def215]

so i got my magnet wire the other day and i finished rewinding the motor. it took me most of the day and looks good.

i just finished it. its 35 turn with 22 gauge wire.

i epoxied it so i left it in the window in the sun to dry and cure.

i got it done and put the motor together and it just doesnt feel the same. im not sure what it is but i only hit like 18 mph and im like running on 32 volts(8s konions). usually it will top out around 22 mph and this was on 37 turns. i tried everything to get it to get that speed again, like advancing my timing, cleaning the excess epoxy off the motor, cleaning the commutator, made sure the wires to the commutator was good, but it still only topped only 18 mph. thats what i dont understand, i ran it unloaded and it will go 30mph unloaded. right now at this point, im just fed up with this project and ready to throw it in the delaware river.

right now, ive lost all hope for this ebike, im just about to call it quits and call this project a loss. so it might be a possibility that this thing will be ICE-powered soon

[dequinox]

Hey don't give up on it yet! I've burnt a charger, a controller, a couple lights, my skin, and a few other things on my project and I'm still in there! don't worry I'm just kiddin around, I know they can get frustrating believe me...

I've been wondering, is this a brushless or a brushed motor? It seems to me you have a brushed one...and if thats the case I would recommend just swapping it for a more powerful motor if you want to go faster. I'm blown away that you bothered to rewind the thing in the first place...that is some serious dedication to take that project on.

TNC scooters has some good parts at reasonable prices, I've ordered one part from them and I seem to recall they ship within a decent time frame. This is the 350watt motor: http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=106128

You can find these motors really easily on ebay too. I got mine for 50 and it's taken a beating over the year I've had it... I've went and pushed 140 amps at 36v through it before. These little motors are not to be overlooked as an inexpensive solution to non-hub builds.

[def215]

ive done a few things like that, like burn my contoller and my voltmeter, but right now, im just frustrated with this thing. maybe i need to step back from it for a little bit and clear my senses and start again with a clear mind.

i am using a brushed 250 watt motor which this will be the second time ive rewinded it. maybe i need to touch the leads of my 8s konion pack and blast some sense back into me to get this running again, because im really unhappy with these results im getting after my rewind.

i do have a lithium pack which is rather new, should i just go ahead and invest in newer technology and say i get a brushless rc motor for it now?

but then again, ive been thinking, can ceramic magnets loose their magnetism from extreme heat? im sort of suspecting this as a case, but when i put the guts of this motor back in, the magnets do pull everything in pretty strongly. so im not sure what is going on with this P.O.S. i own.

[amberwolf]

can ceramic magnets loose their magnetism from extreme heat?

Yes, though I don't know what temp and for how long.

Do you have a second motor like that you could swap cans from to test? I have a similar (perhaps identical) one around here somewhere, which you could have for postage, if I can find it. If both parts are findable I can send the case and the rotor (which is burned out and partially stripped for a rewind) or just the case.

[dequinox]

Actually I also have a 250watt motor identical to the one you have. I think so anyways...that one you have looks like the dime-a-dozen currie motor that goes on the china scooters. I'll send it to you for the postage if you want it... it has the same old nut that holds the sprocket on. I don't mean to step on your toes or anything AW, I just figured if you couldn't find yours I would give him mine.

It could be, def, that the motor isn't reduced enough. Those things are built to drive a little 10 or 12 inch wheel, and to go bigger they need a little better ratio. If it is running well below its ideal rpm range at speed, and especially at startup, it may be drawing way more current than it can handle. It's like when you stall out a table saw or drill or something... the lights in your shop dim because that machine is stopped and is basically a short...and draws all the amperage it cannot handle. You might be "partially stalling" your motor the whole time you are riding. I would recommend a larger motor. The little 900w one is $50 from the right source and will take all the amperage you can throw at it @ 24v, and will take a lot at 36 which is where I am running mine. This one is probably an upgrade from mine, built to take 1kW http://cgi.ebay.com/ELECTRIC-SCOOTER-BI ... ltDomain_0

[amberwolf]

I don't mean to step on your toes or anything AW, I just figured if you couldn't find yours I would give him mine.

I'm not worred about it; as long as he gets something to fix him up. It always sucks to have a problem you suspect but can't verify. (I've had lots of those)

It could be, def, that the motor isn't reduced enough. Those things are built to drive a little 10 or 12 inch wheel, and to go bigger they need a little better ratio.

This is why the one I have needs a rewind. Well, actually it was already damaged before I got it, just not as badly as it is now. See my Electricle blog's older posts for the history of that. Learning curves....

[def215]

Thanks for the offers and kind words of encouragement amberwolf and dequinox. I ended up getting a new motor, pretty much the same one, but the currie 250 watt one instead of one from a razor scooter.

What was wierd is that when I took it for a spin on my messed up rewinded motor, I only went like a quarter of a mile and the motor heated up a substansial amount, to the point I couldn't hold it there for more than a few seconds. Normally it will never get that hot, only when I go and drain the battery, which is like an 8 mile ride pretty much. So now I'm thinking it's my rewind job where I messed up.

I think my reduction Job is ok. It's about a 7.42:1 ratio in a 20inch rim. In my previous rewind, I was able to get I pretty close to it's unloaded speed as long as I helped it below 10 mph, after that it just pulls me along just fine(I'm only about 125 lbs.). Now on my second rewind, it seems like it struggles at any rpm

Yeah, for the last couple days, I was really considering going with an rc motor, but then this is a daily rider/commuter bike. I want it to be as reliable as possible, so I'll just leave it brushed right now and save the rc drive for another build. Besides, I'll be building an ICE bike soon so I'll have someone to ride with too, also it will be for fun too(a project for over on motoredbikes ).

I guess I came to my senses his time around and didn't give up. I guess this is what being a true ebiker is all about. I just hope my pockets and wallet can keep up...lol

[def215]

ok, so i got my new motor today and i took it apart to see the guts, and the currie 250 watt motor looks somewhat different from the unite i have. it looks a little wider than the unite also, so ill have to find a way to get it in there where it used to be. so let me move on from this.

remember that i said that ive rewinded the motor on my bike twice? here are some pictures of the first and last one:

heres the first rewind job

thats the most recent rewind job.

does anyone notice anything odd(except for my sloppy winding job)? ive done some intense research on these two photos and it turns out that ive messed up the windings on this latest rewind.

if you look at the last rewind, you can see the last wind only wraps around 3 teeth of the stator. then on the latest rewind job, it wraps around 4 teeth on the stator(was i using those terms correctly? someone correctly if im wrong). so right now, im thinking that is why i ran into all of this trouble . maybe i rewinded it all wrong and screwed my whole motor up. i feel like a total tool right now. well ill update when i get it running again. hopefully thats soon.

[etard]

Great to see you're back on track man! I also have some el cheapo motors I can send you for shipping cost. Now, can you reuse that magnet wire by unwinding? Oh yeah, you epoxied it.

I like how almost every pic has a racing motor or car in the background.

[def215]

Now, can you reuse that magnet wire by unwinding? Oh yeah, you epoxied it.

I like how almost every pic has a racing motor or car in the background.

i was hoping i can do that. i only epoxied the side where it faces the magnets and not the whole entire thing, hopefully i can still pull it apart. ill see about that tomorrow. in the meantime i do have my currie 250watt motor that just came in the mail, so ill try to put that on there in the meantime

the one time i decide to do something the right way is when i screw up entirely

haha. yeah, the cars and the motors somehow make their way into the pics. i work at a high performance car shop and thats where i keep my bike most of the time so i cant get away from them at all. but soon enough, i wont be able to be around any of it since ill be in school fulltime in the upcoming weeks

[mwkeefer]

Def,

Enough BS with rewinding that puppy!

I've got 1/2 dozen BLDC RC motors here 3-5kw ready to go, an assortment of DC motors like your currie already which I WILL NEVER USE in 250-450w versions...

Pick a direction and I'll meet ya at your shop and drop off what you need

Seriously though - youd be doing me a favor, I have too much shit here to work on and not enough days left in my life!

If you want the DC motors - they are yours, the RC motors - pick 2... I can throw ya some infineons too but it's on you to add hall sensors (check gwhy's thread).. In fact compared to what your running now on that 8S pack - I've got a Tower Pro 5330 9T (135kv Delta) which I had good bearings put in and magnets enhanced... they are supposed to be good for 200C but I wouldn't pass 40 over ambient or max about 140F. That little motor would be a forever runner if your pushing < 2kw through it

PM me - we can chat about whatever you may need for that BMXer to get it running and reliable without any more REWINDs.

-Mike

[def215]

thanks for the offers etard and mike, but i want this one to be 100% my time and money, since it will be my commuter and nothing more. but i will take donations for my next build. which will be a high-powered, RC friction-drive setup. ...jkjk.(but i think that one might be built soon)

so as i stated, i did get a 250 watt currie motor. it seems the same as the unite that i have but one thing, its too wide! so i got the hacking and removed this:

i had to trim the motors width down, and also push the commutator up so it will fit inside the trimmed-down can and create more shaft to have it go in correctly, so some more hacking and some cussin, i got it to work. heres how it looks:

i had to remove that part of the canister from that side to get everything to fit in my frame again. i also like the stickers on it that say "Currie Tech" and "Electro Drive." the stickers seem like it gives it that novelty, picking it apart from all the normal bikes.

i guess my 7T homemade sprocket still works on the new motor i have.

after my first ride on this new motor, im impressed. it performs better than my rewound unite. okay, well under around 15 mph it feels a bit sluggish, but right after 15 mph, it starts to move, up to its top speed on 7s which is around 22 mph. also i let that friend who fried my first motor take it around and it didnt have any problems...so far. *knock on wood* so im fairly satisfied with my bike so far. i just hope that it doesnt break in the near future anytime soon. so tomorrow i can do the finishing touches on it, like advance my timing, play with my motor mounts a bit to get the chain alignment correct, and some odds and ends here and there. also i need to charge my batteries up and take it for a 8s run on 32.28 volts and hook up my watt meter. but for some reason, i feel like i need more konions

im feeling that EV grin all over again

[mwkeefer]

def,

I may show up and insist eventually - but these were offers that I don't think take it out of the "you paid for it" range, I've picked up a few things from you (what not to do in philly snow) and I'm sure others have too... your putting junk (not like AmberWolf but low end bits) to good use and it's very inspiring to the other shade trees amongst us... so imho, tossing you parts I would / will not be using benefits everyone and comeon man... it's not like I'm in Cali, were nearly neighbors

Seeing you got another 250w currie running with your 7T drive, and seeing your rather "lack of impressedness" {sorry had to south philly} until 15mph but then reasonable performance until 22mph... I'm a tad worried, I know you indicate that even the guy who fried your setup did no damage on this build up but...

If my understanding is right (who knows) - your maximum power should be at 1/2 of no load speed, I would wager we can really tune the performance of the setup if you can get a reading of no load RPM... I know you don't have an RPM meter right, but you work in a shop so use a timing light to clock it? In either case, if you can get no load of the motor... I may be able to suggest a different gearing to get you better performance and locate the "power" band where you want it (wherever that may be).

Another thing that I find concerning, unless you have it geared so poorly that the motor is struggling under load until 15mph is reached (I don't know your reduction ratio so I can't guess at motor RPM under load) so I'm wondering if maybe your controller isn't doing some form of "soft start" type thing?

What is the output shaft size on your motors, 8mm, 3/8"? I have spares of many BLDC motors with good bits which I won't be using but would give you 18-20% more efficiency over a brushed DC motor and also much more power if you wanted it (or a huge buffer zone in output power)... gwhy has PCBs for adding the halls now so it's fairly Piece of Cake to get an infineon working on a Tower Pro or Turnigy and running with any voltage pack you require to match your power and speed needs.

In either case - the offers stand, I even have some LiPo you could have (sorry I need some A123 cells myself right now, 3 to be specific) which isn't puffed but has seen about 400 cycles at 2-5C discharge and still holds 4.8 AH per 5AH block with 4.16v cutout HVC and 3.2v LVC (so same as the first week after break in) - this pack has been charged as 6S in parallel at 1/2 C maximum rate immediately after using...

Well... as always - your welcome to pick the parts bins here, really you would kinda be doing me a favor!

Oh yea - if you were interested I have a spare 3spd freehub SRF3 internal hub laced into a nice 20" rim which would work with one of Gary Goodrums adapters (or your own) to add a nice large rear drive sprocket - keep the straight chainline and freewheeling of both motor and pedals but isolated at the rear while adding 3 speeds (1.33x, 1x anx .75x) for both pedal through and motor through - really extending your speed range while optimizing efficiency. I'd be happy to give it freely but if you insisted you could pay me what I paid (49.95 for the whole shebang with small parts, 16t cog and shifter).

Just thinking if you wanted to do a nice BMXish, low weight RC style build - the 3spd internal rear should be good for up to 5kw on a 20" rim... personally I'm approaching 2600w input power and approx 2300w output maximum on my latest test setup with a 60.00 turnigy motor running 6S LiPo.

Glad to see the iron steed is back in service again!

Regards,
Mike

PS: What's your day like tommorow - if the rain holds, I'll be riding to the city for the day just to hang out and catch up with some friends in South and around Rittenhouse... maybe we can catch up for a coffee or a race? We could find some bike cops to fuk wid hehe

[dequinox]

Wow thats a heck of a nice offer def, I'd be all over that one! I'm still working on ~510 W*Hr of donated NiCads in order to get my bike a better range and performance. The generosity here is completely amazing to me every time I see an offer like this. ES ROCKS!!

[etard]

Hey Mike,
I'm just a poor lowly bum in need of some Lipo.

That's a great offer Def, no pride lost in accepting free upgrades!! 3 speeds would get you all the power and top speed that motor is ever going to put out, you can shave minutes off your commute. AND, it's already laced, WTF??!!

You two hooligans have fun, we'll be sure to post bail if necessary.

[def215]

def,

I may show up and insist eventually - but these were offers that I don't think take it out of the "you paid for it" range, I've picked up a few things from you (what not to do in philly snow) and I'm sure others have too... your putting junk (not like AmberWolf but low end bits) to good use and it's very inspiring to the other shade trees amongst us... so imho, tossing you parts I would / will not be using benefits everyone and comeon man... it's not like I'm in Cali, were nearly neighbors

Seeing you got another 250w currie running with your 7T drive, and seeing your rather "lack of impressedness" {sorry had to south philly} until 15mph but then reasonable performance until 22mph... I'm a tad worried, I know you indicate that even the guy who fried your setup did no damage on this build up but...

If my understanding is right (who knows) - your maximum power should be at 1/2 of no load speed, I would wager we can really tune the performance of the setup if you can get a reading of no load RPM... I know you don't have an RPM meter right, but you work in a shop so use a timing light to clock it? In either case, if you can get no load of the motor... I may be able to suggest a different gearing to get you better performance and locate the "power" band where you want it (wherever that may be).

Another thing that I find concerning, unless you have it geared so poorly that the motor is struggling under load until 15mph is reached (I don't know your reduction ratio so I can't guess at motor RPM under load) so I'm wondering if maybe your controller isn't doing some form of "soft start" type thing?

What is the output shaft size on your motors, 8mm, 3/8"? I have spares of many BLDC motors with good bits which I won't be using but would give you 18-20% more efficiency over a brushed DC motor and also much more power if you wanted it (or a huge buffer zone in output power)... gwhy has PCBs for adding the halls now so it's fairly Piece of Cake to get an infineon working on a Tower Pro or Turnigy and running with any voltage pack you require to match your power and speed needs.

In either case - the offers stand, I even have some LiPo you could have (sorry I need some A123 cells myself right now, 3 to be specific) which isn't puffed but has seen about 400 cycles at 2-5C discharge and still holds 4.8 AH per 5AH block with 4.16v cutout HVC and 3.2v LVC (so same as the first week after break in) - this pack has been charged as 6S in parallel at 1/2 C maximum rate immediately after using...

Well... as always - your welcome to pick the parts bins here, really you would kinda be doing me a favor!

Oh yea - if you were interested I have a spare 3spd freehub SRF3 internal hub laced into a nice 20" rim which would work with one of Gary Goodrums adapters (or your own) to add a nice large rear drive sprocket - keep the straight chainline and freewheeling of both motor and pedals but isolated at the rear while adding 3 speeds (1.33x, 1x anx .75x) for both pedal through and motor through - really extending your speed range while optimizing efficiency. I'd be happy to give it freely but if you insisted you could pay me what I paid (49.95 for the whole shebang with small parts, 16t cog and shifter).

Just thinking if you wanted to do a nice BMXish, low weight RC style build - the 3spd internal rear should be good for up to 5kw on a 20" rim... personally I'm approaching 2600w input power and approx 2300w output maximum on my latest test setup with a 60.00 turnigy motor running 6S LiPo.

Glad to see the iron steed is back in service again!

Regards,
Mike

PS: What's your day like tommorow - if the rain holds, I'll be riding to the city for the day just to hang out and catch up with some friends in South and around Rittenhouse... maybe we can catch up for a coffee or a race? We could find some bike cops to fuk wid hehe

i dont think in anyway my work can compare to amberwolf's. he's just the master of repurposing, im just mediocre at best compared to him.

right now im more than happy with my brushed setup at the moment. i plan to build a brushless rc-powered bike, but not anytime soon. maybe if i have a motor to stare at, that might motivate me.

since it isnt broken or anything, i thought i run it until it completely dies.

Hey Mike,
I'm just a poor lowly bum in need of some Lipo.

That's a great offer Def, no pride lost in accepting free upgrades!! 3 speeds would get you all the power and top speed that motor is ever going to put out, you can shave minutes off your commute. AND, it's already laced, WTF??!!

You two hooligans have fun, we'll be sure to post bail if necessary.

i dont know. i just feel like something doesnt actually belongs to me if i get it for free, unless i pay something for it.

so i got a chance to put a smaller front sprocket on it, which is a 6t. my rear is still the 52t so i believe its a 8.66:1 gear ratio. it feels peppier now and it has good power throughout its range of speed. but its top speed is around 20mph on 7s. i guess thats good enough so i can commute with.

on another note, i been playing with the idea of another motorized bike and ended up with a gasoline motor on a bike. i put this one together by request from a friend(with my bike in the background, so i guess its ebike related):

i have a feeling i just should of went e-drive for this one. just thought id share that.

[dequinox]

Ha ha ha easy enough to do def, just replace that thar motor w/ a recumpence R/C drive!

[dequinox]

Hey def, do you know a place where I could get one of those gas bike sprockets with the clamps for it? I have a source or two but I'm not sure if they sell the clamp parts with the sprocket.