Catrike 700-E build

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:01 pm

Pics and video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdEGCNyes0o

The trike is geared for 22mph at this point. I will gear it up for about 30mph shortly. But, for now, this is good because I can let my kids ride it. :)

Anyway, the efficiency is great, the weight is low (somewhere around 55 to 60 pounds if I had to guess) and it is quiet. The video sound sucks. It seems to amplify the high pitch frequencies. It is actually almost silent.

Anyway, I am a happy camper. The current ripple is very low and everything runs nice and cool.

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby etard » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:58 am

Incredible work man, you have a great source of light and durable test pilots. :lol:

Looking at the pics, I realized this thing has all the bells and whistles, can you give me a quick and dirty rundown of the tech specs and custom made features that you added to the standard trike model. I'm really impressed, this thing had it all.

Also, do these trikes fit into the rear storage cavity of a Cessna 172? I know you sell to pilots, so maybe you could design one that folds? The reason I am asking is because the wright of this thing suprised me 60lbs for all those features, damn!
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby jmygann » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:17 pm

beautiful!

How fast can you still have a comfortable pedal input ?

Any thoughts on a motor/drive for Tommy and the 2 passenger trike ??
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:27 pm

etard wrote:Incredible work man, you have a great source of light and durable test pilots. :lol:

Looking at the pics, I realized this thing has all the bells and whistles, can you give me a quick and dirty rundown of the tech specs and custom made features that you added to the standard trike model. I'm really impressed, this thing had it all.

Also, do these trikes fit into the rear storage cavity of a Cessna 172? I know you sell to pilots, so maybe you could design one that folds? The reason I am asking is because the wright of this thing suprised me 60lbs for all those features, damn!


Upgrades to the stock trike;

26 inch, 36 spoke rear wheel (to handle the electric drive)
Rear frame stifteners (my design)
Front tillers (handlebars)-(also my design)
Carbon headrest plates (my design)
FSA carbon cranks


The electric system;

Astro 3220 7 turn wye
HV160 ESC
My own throttle
4 Trunigy 25C 6S packs
3 CNC battery boxes (two for the packs and one for the ESC and throttle interface)
single stage belt drive with CNC case
3 drive unit mount bases with 2 inch drive unit frame clamps used for battery box mounts


There are plenty of folding trikes out there. I am looking into converting one. I have to sell a few toys first, though. I have $20,000 worth of project bikes in my garage right now. :D

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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:30 pm

jmygann wrote:beautiful!

How fast can you still have a comfortable pedal input ?

Any thoughts on a motor/drive for Tommy and the 2 passenger trike ??


I can pedal up to about 27mph or so pretty easily.

Tommy's tandem really needs a motorcycle motor like an E-tech. My big motor would work, but require a deep reduction to be useable in his application.

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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby jmygann » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:52 pm

Any measurement of Wh/mi ... no pedaling ? with pedaling ?
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:17 pm

jmygann wrote:Any measurement of Wh/mi ... no pedaling ? with pedaling ?


The range seems to be identical to my recumbent without pedalling. Judging by that, it would come in at roughly 15wh per mile at 20mph. I will get numbers ASAP.

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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:55 pm

It looks like this trike is good for 11wh per mile at 20mph. That is better than I thought. That means this pack is good for a good 35 miles without pedalling. :mrgreen:

I put about 100 miles on it so far. I have had zero problems.

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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby etard » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:29 pm

Matt,
You are literally a genius at small electric vehicles!! I was originally inspired by your original masterpiece, but the refinery and placement of the best components available is amazing. You are truly blessed with a gift, and I think we all are exponentially blessed that you share the goodness with the rest of us. :mrgreen:

Going back to the trike, this thing is actually useable as a vehicle for commuting, and I'm sure adding twice as much battery wouldn't alter the ride by much, seeing as how light it is. Go price a Ford Think, and a sideby side of one of these could be a sreamin good deal!

How does this trike compare to your original recumbent in terms of efficiency, power, and ride?
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:35 pm

etard wrote:How does this trike compare to your original recumbent in terms of efficiency, power, and ride?


That is a very good question. They were parked next to each other today and I was wondering the same thing.

Here are a few comparisons;

Actionbent Midracer--- 13wh per mile at 20mph.
CT700--- 11wh per mile at 20mph.
Midracer--- 48 pounds.
CT700--- 60 pounds? (still have to weigh it)
Midracer--- 3 stages from motor to wheel.
CT700--- Two stages to the wheel.
Midracer--- Extremely complicated drive unit.
CT700--- Very simple drive unit.

Midracer--- Top speed 40mph.
CT700--- Top speed 26mph (in current configuration. I may increase this to 30+ soon).
Midracer--- Relatively comfortable.
CT700--- VERY comfortable.
Midracer--- A bit fragile, but not too bad (too many parts in the drive unit).
CT700--- Very reliable. I would trust this thing across the state or country.
Midracer--- Cost to build--- $3,800.
CT700--- Cost to build--- $4,600 (roughly). Of course, I get stuff at cost or I make it myself. That helps. :D This thing is worth about $6,500 to $7,000 as it sits if you consider retail price of everything and the time spent.

Lastly, the Midracer took about 40 to 50 hours of R&D (after all machining was finished) to figure out and get it to this point. While the CT700 just works, no problems, no complaints.

Oh, also, the CT700 is much easier to ride. There is less to know to run it.

All in all, I will still use the Midracer. I love that thing. I have 1,100 miles on it and it is still fun. However, I am liking the stability and other benefits of the trike.

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby drewjet » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:07 pm

Any close ups on your throttle, and are you selling them?
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby MitchJi » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:07 am

Hi Matt,

Beautiful bike, very elegant!

Very elegant and mostly off-the-shelf parts. You are close (if you are not there already) to being able to offer pretty complete kits, using your stock parts, to fit most bikes.
recumpence wrote:CT700--- Two stages to the wheel.
How much reduction (first stage and second stage)?
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:25 am

First stage--- 4 to 1.
Second stage--- 3.5 to 1.

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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby MitchJi » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:56 pm

Hi Matt,

recumpence wrote:First stage--- 4 to 1.
Second stage--- 3.5 to 1.
Thanks! Please let us know how the belt holds up.

In case you are interested, assuming the first stage is 5mm 20t/80t according to this calculator with the shafts 3.42 inches apart (450 mm belt) there are 6 teeth meshing but with the shafts 5.28 inches apart (535 mm belt) there are 8 teeth meshing.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

Get a great deal on an EV (NEV), buy my ZENN!
"2006 ZENN NEV - Only ~2K Miles - Excellent Cond! - Only $2k"
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:54 pm

Well, I finally got my speedo wired up and programmed. I did some testing and have some hard numbers for you.

First, it maxes out at 26mph with the current gearing, just as I thought. Second, in real world riding, It averages 14wh per mile. That is with some full throttle blasts, climbing hills, and generally cruising around (no pedalling what-so-ever). I can nurse it a bit and improve that quite a bit. Heck, going to a 3210 would probably drop 1 or 2 wh per mile, most likely. But, I wanted to give some real world numbers for you.

Also, I have over 100 miles on it and it has been totally problem free, no loose set screws, no broken belt, just cruising. :)

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby MitchJi » Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:36 pm

Hi Matt,
recumpence wrote:Anyway, the efficiency is great, the weight is low (somewhere around 55 to 60 pounds if I had to guess) and it is quiet. The video sound sucks. It seems to amplify the high pitch frequencies. It is actually almost silent.

Substantially quieter than your other ebikes?

If so how much of that is attributable to the enclosed belt first stage and how much is attributable to the lower rpm (drive noise)?

Is the lower kv motor substantially quieter (motor noise)?
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

Get a great deal on an EV (NEV), buy my ZENN!
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:21 pm

The sound is lower due to both the enclosed drive and the lower RPM.

I found out something interesting....... On very efficient builds like this (my recumbent would qualify also), everything makes a substancial difference. For example, previously, I was averaging 14wh per mile with average riding. I just got back from a 5 mile ride with mixed riding (some casual, some not so casual, alot of full throttle, some pedalling, mostly no pedalling) and averaged 12wh per mile. Hmm, the only thing I did was increase tire pressure from 65 pounds to 100 pounds. That is a huge improvement!

Anyway, I just ordered a slipper clutch from McMaster. It will need to be modified for this application. However, I was to give it a shot. I really want to make this trike something I can just let anyone ride without coaching about belt skip, or overamping the controller (if I go to a chain). It would be nice to just say "Pedal first" then "Have fun!". I am very close to that right now.

At any rate, I have let many people ride it. I just talk to them about belt skip and they are fine. This system is so refined, however, that I want to eliminate the last item of any question at all and that is by way of a slipper clutch to protect the driveline and controller.

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby mwkeefer » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 pm

My dear friend Matt :)

Have you given some though to somthing akin to a throttle lock out with a cadence sensor on either the crank or the wheel (or an idler, etc)... so a minimum speed would need to be reached before the throttle would engage?

Would eliminate the need to explain "Pedal First" :) and it would likely be a crudload simpler to engineer than a slipper clutch - simply interrupt the throttle return line or hold it to ground.

Tire pressure will not only make the world of difference in terms of general efficiency and ride quality but, it kinda makes the slipper un-needed... at 100psi, I'm betting you will spin them before you slip the belt drive ?

-Mike
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:19 pm

mwkeefer wrote:My dear friend Matt :)

Have you given some though to somthing akin to a throttle lock out with a cadence sensor on either the crank or the wheel (or an idler, etc)... so a minimum speed would need to be reached before the throttle would engage?

Would eliminate the need to explain "Pedal First" :) and it would likely be a crudload simpler to engineer than a slipper clutch - simply interrupt the throttle return line or hold it to ground.

-Mike

Yes, I have.

The main reason for the slipper is multifaceted. First, it is only a $67 part that I then modify. Second, a slipper also is RPM sensitive in that at low RPM, it will slip relatively easily, and at higher RPM more wattage is required to slip. I am not sure why this is. But, on my recumbent, it works fantastic! They are also easy to adjust and tune. Besides, it will protect the driveline from overloading.

I am with ya, though.

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:26 pm

Here is a picture of the bottom of the trike.

Also, my guess at 60 pounds was dead on. It weighs 59.6 pounds. :mrgreen:

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby Sheriff Jon » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:40 pm

Gosh, looking at the quality of your work and level of craftsmanship is like looking at the inner workings of a lunar lander 8)
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:02 pm

Thanks. :D

I am really liking the level of performance, efficiency, light weight, and overall useability of this trike. Tomorrow I plan on taking it for a 30-40 mile ride. I will do a bit of pedalling. But, it will be mostly motoring. I will take it to the neighboring town that I grew up in. I plan on touring all my old neighborhoods, back alleys, and friends houses I used to pedal to as a kid. I think this trip will take on a whole new meaning on a bike. I mean, I have driven these roads hundreds of times since growing up. But, I have never done so on a bike. This should be interesting. Oh, I have always wanted to rerun a lap around my neighborhood in the same way I did on my go-kart as a child. This thing comes really close in feel to a kart. So, I will do that lap and see if it brings back memories.

At any rate, I have never gone so far on one of my E-bikes before. I think it is about time I do some serious touring on it.

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby jmygann » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:18 pm

Do you feel that a SRAM DD 3 speed rear hub would be of any advantage ?
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby recumpence » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:59 am

Yes, I do, actually. However, not for dual right side drive (though that is cool). But, for higher gearing for pedalling. I can very comfortably pedal up to 28mph. I can do 30mph without spinning out. But, that is not comfortable. This thing is geared (motor gearing) for 26mph on a full charge. So, at high gear, I can pedal with it just fine. However, I would love to gear up for 30-32mph. That would require taller gearing. That being said, all I really would need is a slightly larger chainring to achieve that. Besides, the only reason I need low gearing is to pedal only if I have an electric problem. Low gear in this thing is LOOOW. The smallest chainring is 32 tooth. That is also the largest rear cog. So, I can go as low as 1-to-1 on the pedal to wheel gearing. That is awesome for hill climbing without a motor.

Anyway, I am babbling.........

I will be taking the 700 for a 30 mile tour this afternoon, after work. I will post back my findings on how well it performs in long touring rides. If it seems comfortable and capable in that roll, I will set it up for long distance touring. Heck, I normally stay so close to home, I do not even carry a spare tube or pump. That will, obviously, have to change if I do much touring, especially with these skinny high pressure tires. Oh, ya, this thing uses funky 16 inch by 1 inch Presta front tubes. Oh, joy. I have to drive nearly an hour away to pick up those funky tubes. Hmm, I guess I should stock up. :D

Matt
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Re: Catrike 700-E build

Postby deecanio » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:04 am

Matt,

video plleeeaaaaseeee?????


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