Schwinn Spoiler---Now with 1200w Cyclone Motor

[RallySTX]

Hello TC, loose contacts on that busbar will cause open circuits and resistance. That new motor looks promising. I hope your back isn't sore after that ride, mine would be killing me! Damb it, you stole my idea about the indicator mirrors! Thanks for the heads up on Manitu's Spoiler build. I sent him a hello note, so if he suddenly vanishes, make sure I get the credit. I mean blame!! See ya mate.
Brian L.

[TopCat]

GEARING - Cog/Sprocket/Chain help.

Can anyone help out with my gearing. Im running a 500w motor at 36V. At the moment im running an 11T mini moto cog on the motor and an 54T sprocket on the 20" wheel. I get around 22mph but my motor gets very very hot - so hot it'd take the skin of your hand. Iv'e tried varoius combinations of cogs/sprockets etc but just cant get it right. So before I go throwing good money after bad I'd like to know im buying the right combination of cogs/sprockets etc.

What I have in my bin of parts at the moment.

36V 500Watt motor 2500rpm. Rated Current 17.5A.
36v 800watt Controller.
11T minimoto cog, on motor.
8mm pitch minimoto chain.
45T mininmoto sprocket.
44T mininmoto sprocket.

16T LH Freewheel.
45T Sprocket.
49T Sprocket
BMX Chain

Can someone with gearing knowhow recommend the right cos/sprockets etc

Regards
Tom

[jimw1960]

So here's me thinking i'd need a smaller rear wheel sprocket but its a BIG one I need. I had a look around but couldn't find any? Anyone know where i'd get a 80T BMX type sprocket?

Thanks for any info.

Regards
Tom

There is somebody on the For Sale thread selling 80-tooth sprockets. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29515

[gtadmin]

GEARING - Cog/Sprocket/Chain help.

Can anyone help out with my gearing. Im running a 500w motor at 36V. At the moment im running an 11T mini moto cog on the motor and an 54T sprocket on the 20" wheel. I get around 22mph but my motor gets very very hot - so hot it'd take the skin of your hand. Iv'e tried varoius combinations of cogs/sprockets etc but just cant get it right. So before I go throwing good money after bad I'd like to know im buying the right combination of cogs/sprockets etc.

What I have in my bin of parts at the moment.

36V 500Watt motor 2500rpm. Rated Current 17.5A.
36v 800watt Controller.
11T minimoto cog, on motor.
8mm pitch minimoto chain.
45T mininmoto sprocket.
44T mininmoto sprocket.

16T LH Freewheel.
45T Sprocket.
49T Sprocket
BMX Chain

Can someone with gearing knowhow recommend the right cos/sprockets etc

Regards
Tom

Hi Tom, I hope the following helps: Assumption is that you want the top speed to be 22mph at 2500 motor rpm.

Convert to metric: 22mph x 1.609 = 35.4kph.
A 20" tyre is 500mm diameter and travels PIx500 = 1.57m per rev, so at 35.4kph the wheel has to rotate
35,400/1.57 = 22,546revs / hour = 22,546 / 60 = 375.8 rpm. OK so far?

So 2500 motor rpm x 11t = 375.8 wheel rpm x #Wr teeth therefore
#Wr teeth = (2500 x 11) / 375.8 = 73.18 => use 73 teeth.

Will this reduce your very hot temperature? I don't know, but it should reduce it and your gearing will be about right.

Cheers,
GT

[AussieJester]

A 20" tyre is 500mm diameter

He runs a 4.25in tyre i think it might be bigger than 500mm Diameter ...

You can't get those motors that hot ToPcat, what your smelling is the coating
on the magnet wires burning, i would think you have all but killed it with
the gearing you have put on it, you should of left the front sprocket
alone bought a disk brake freehweel adapter and fitted that to the rear hub
you could then bolt your existing sprocket to it, retaining your original gear ratio..

You bought more LiPO duuude get some LifeP04 seriously... i forsee more bad things
in your future

KiM

[gtadmin]

A 20" tyre is 500mm diameter

He runs a 4.25in tyre i think it might be bigger than 500mm Diameter ...

Yeah probably, but the only size given is 20" so that's what I went with. A bigger diameter will require more than 73 teeth on the back. Tom?

Edit: I should also mention that the 2500rpm is probably the no-load speed, and we should use something like 90-95% of that for calculations. Anyway, it's a start.

[TopCat]

So here's me thinking i'd need a smaller rear wheel sprocket but its a BIG one I need. I had a look around but couldn't find any? Anyone know where i'd get a 80T BMX type sprocket?

Thanks for any info.

Regards
Tom

There is somebody on the For Sale thread selling 80-too sprockets. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29515

I contacted Bobc and he says that his sprockets fit an 8mm roller chain. Humm! I'd have to then also find a cog and chain for my motor.

Hi Tom, I hope the following helps: Assumption is that you want the top speed to be 22mph at 2500 motor rpm.

Convert to metric: 22mph x 1.609 = 35.4kph.
A 20" tyre is 500mm diameter and travels PIx500 = 1.57m per rev, so at 35.4kph the wheel has to rotate
35,400/1.57 = 22,546revs / hour = 22,546 / 60 = 375.8 rpm. OK so far?

So 2500 motor rpm x 11t = 375.8 wheel rpm x #Wr teeth therefore
#Wr teeth = (2500 x 11) / 375.8 = 73.18 => use 73 teeth.

Will this reduce your very hot temperature? I don't know, but it should reduce it and your gearing will be about right.

Cheers,
GT

Hi GT, Thanks for trying to help out but sadly my math skills are non exsistant - I need to get naked to count to 21
22 mph is the fastest I have been on my bike - so im told, using gps sports tracker etc. I'd like to go faster but I think I'd need a bigger motor.

A 20" tyre is 500mm diameter

He runs a 4.25in tyre i think it might be bigger than 500mm Diameter ...

You can't get those motors that hot ToPcat, what your smelling is the coating
on the magnet wires burning, i would think you have all but killed it with
the gearing you have put on it, you should of left the front sprocket
alone bought a disk brake freehweel adapter and fitted that to the rear hub
you could then bolt your existing sprocket to it, retaining your original gear ratio..

You bought more LiPO duuude get some LifeP04 seriously... i forsee more bad things
in your future

KiM

Hey Kim, Yes I can get my motor very hot indeed. When I first setup the bike with the 11T minimoto cog on the motor and the 54T minimoto sprocket on the wheel it liiked like this...

I was running this on heavy SLA's that were past there best. I then got lipos (ooh dear ) and a LH freewheel/Tophat adaptor and sprockets from Sosauty...

moved the motor and I tryed this setup...


16T freewheel on motor and one of Sosauty's sprockets on the wheel, 49T I think it was.
A run around the block on this setup had smoke coming from my motor.
I then tried my hand at a jackshaft setup but that failed as it took weeks to get up to any kind of speed and the chains kept slipping off. So it was back to the 11T minimoto cog on motor & 54T sprocket on wheel.
I'll need to see about getting one of those disk brake freehweel adapters you mentioned?

Little update.
I have made up a makeshift battbox from some scrap wood 'n and old plastic shop sign, made a vent at the front to cool the controller - (pictures later). I'll make a better one once I can source out better materials. Done away with the big box on the back. Put my new rear mudguard on.
oh and Kim, I wired up all my lipos. I set them up like neptronix did... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28427&start=0
Made 3 serial connectors like so.

Then a parallel harness.

Hooked everything up and waited for a BANG!! No bang so I took a spin around the block, all ok. I wont know if the motor will get stingy hand hot until I go for a long run, which I plan to do today, as I have to go over to Stirling, which is about 7 mile. Around round trip of 12 to 14 mile - depending which route I take.

Back later with an update on how the run went.

Regards
Tom

[gtadmin]

... Hi GT, Thanks for trying to help out but sadly my math skills are non exsistant - I need to get naked to count to 21

So I've read

22 mph is the fastest I have been on my bike - so im told, using gps sports tracker etc. I'd like to go faster but I think I'd need a bigger motor...

Just did a quick calc and I think you are consistently pulling up to about 37A through your motor (which is rated at 17.5A), so you have 2 options: be happy with 20 odd mph and re-gear, or get a bigger motor.

Hope there's good news after your ride :: GT crosses fingers ::

[TopCat]

Got to Stirling ok but the motor was still stingy - burn you hand - fry and egg on it HOT. The controller was cool - though it is now stuck behind a vent at the front of my batt box. I didn't make it all the way back (need a couple more lipos) and had to cycle a few miles. My legs n' arse are killing me, hence the chair and a cupp a when I got home. This bike was not designed in anyway shape or form for peddaling

Just back from Stirling, a sit down and a cuppa.


Strip out the batts for recharging and take some watt meter readings.
The black plastic coated aluminium sheet over the back mudguard is for holding my new saddlebags. Still have a little work to do on it.


Makeshift Batt Box with gold vent to cool controller.
I'll make a better one once I get some more materials.




Lipo setup.



Here are the readings from the Turnigy Watt Meter after my trip.

32.67V
15.027AH
41.72AP
565.6WH
1689.6WP
31.69VM

Whatever all that means? Maybe someone can enlighten me.

So it looks like im stuck with a hot motor until I get the gearing sussed out? but I eventually plan to get bigger motor.

Regards
Tom

[AussieJester]

Got to Stirling ok but the motor was still stingy - burn you hand - fry and egg on it HOT. The controller was cool - though it is now stuck behind a vent at the front of my batt box. I didn't make it all the way back (need a couple more lipos) and had to cycle a few miles. My legs n' arse are killing me, hence the chair and a cupp a when I got home. This bike was not designed in anyway shape or form for peddaling

Just back from Stirling, a sit down and a cuppa.


Strip out the batts for recharging and take some watt meter readings.
The black plastic coated aluminium sheet over the back mudguard is for holding my new saddlebags. Still have a little work to do on it.


Makeshift Batt Box with gold vent to cool controller.
I'll make a better one once I get some more materials.




Lipo setup.



Here are the readings from the Turnigy Watt Meter after my trip.

32.67V
15.027AH
41.72AP
565.6WH
1689.6WP
31.69VM

Whatever all that means? Maybe someone can enlighten me.

So it looks like im stuck with a hot motor until I get the gearing sussed out? but I eventually plan to get bigger motor.

Regards
Tom

Turnigy readings

Volts
Amp hours (used)
Amps Peak
watt hours (used)
Watts peak
Volts minimum

KiM

[RallySTX]

Wow, you really have made progress man. I think that motor wil always be hot where it is now. Not enough air getting to it for one thing. A bigger motor might help, but that will mean more lipo too. You are running a 44v 15ah setup right? If so, that explains the range issue. As I read I learned that you can generally expect to have half the range in miles you have in AH available. So if you have a 15ah pack, you get about 7 miles in before the pack drains down. Considering the weight and drag of your bike, you are doing great except for the hot potato behind the seat post!
Sorry, I looked back and found you are running 5S3P setup. That's 37 volts and 15 amps. I am surprised it works so well. Charged to 4.2 volts is 42 volts, and that isn't much for such a big bike. Solve that heat issue, add two more 5S lipo, and you should be good to go. If you are putting 1600 watts through a 500 watt motor, that's why it's getting hot. You need a 2 KW motor for that baby! And find a way to direct some cooling air onto it, or it will always be hot.
Brian L.

[mwkeefer]

I am joining you in a build of the same bike (mine is beginning missing a few bits) - I will go RC (Astro 3220 / 3215) drive using sensors, infineon and attempt to get my nominal RPM at the shaft up around 10K RPM (maximum power and efficiency)... I am planning a 12S6P 40AH Pack (the Zippy 6S 8000mah 30C packs) and have the packs, and most of the bits - the rear is a hub motor with a moped wheel built I believe by John Robert Holmes on a moped rim and with moped tire but I will be replacing that with as close to a 4/4.5" fatboy style as is possible.

Onboard charging should be around 1200w from 110v DC or approx: 24A into a 40AH pack so recharge normally via onboard charger will take approx 2 hours from empty.

I have a garage charger of 2400w now which works quite well (replaced the setting resistors of a 74v nominal model with a variety of digital pots to accomplish tuning of voltage on the fly) but requires 220 or it will toss breakers - this charges a 40AH pack of 12S at 48A which is just a tad over 1C and should work out to a full charge in about an hour with a 1/2 charge top off in 30 minutes (I hope).

My intent is to be on par with a Chevy Volt for versatility (yes I've thought of adding a gasoline motor powered generator - small, 1000w maxmimum for extended range trips).

I've still not found a replacement rear rim / wheel in any color for these, let alone the stock - also looking for a stock straight bar, came with monkey bars... I got ape hangers but they are too much and so now I have a straight bar on it...

The motor on the rear is currently a 9C from ebikekit (I got the bike from Jason) and other than a 5 minute putt around my neighborhood... .I tore it down to build it back up... problem is all the non-standard parts.

In either case - my rear will be either an Nexus Inter3 Disc Silent or if Gary Goodrum completes a process for mounting the new Nuvinci (much better range of gears) via a new adapter (he currently offers a nice freewheel adapter to be used to attach easily a #25 80t rear steel sprocket or others onto some of the 3 speed internal shifting hubs (must shift through the axle ends, if it pivots on the axle it won't work).
One thing that would be nice (gary depending on cost, I may be willing to buy sufficient quantity to make it cost fairly little to produce would be these adapters so they will accept the metric 30mm x 1.0 which will allow us to install freewheels with as few as 13t (odessy, I use with Recumpence v3 and v4 drives to increase maximum reduction as needed and to increase my pedal cadence multiplier as needed.

Well - I will be very interested to follow your thread and will soon be starting my own thread for this build.

The one thing I haven't decided, if I will try to register as an experimental vehicle in PA and add all the cycle style required safety equipment.

Good work so far on that build up by the way.... how fun is it to cruise about on under power, does it turn heads, do you get kicked over if you enter a biker bar?

Regards and Best Wishes!
-Mike

PS: I have a smaller version (between this and the boys, not schwinn but American Pogo Stick Company) which seems roughly (sans wheelbase) to be identical in most ways to these (not color scheme, this thing is blue with no suspension but has pegs, etc)... I will post pics of it tommorow in the daylight, I am happy to part with anything I won't need for my own build if it would be helpful to you (it will help me clean the yard)

[jimw1960]

You are running a 44v 15ah setup right? If so, that explains the range issue. As I read I learned that you can generally expect to have half the range in miles you have in AH available. So if you have a 15ah pack, you get about 7 miles in before the pack drains down.

I think you got it wrong. Generally, you can get almost TWICE (not half) the miles as your battery has in Ah for a 36v or 48v system. On my 36v15Ah, I regularly got 28 miles. On my 48v20Ah Ping, I have never run it to cutoff, but have gone over 33 miles without still plenty of power. Of course, this assumes running at moderate speeds around 20 mph with some pedaling on hills.

[RallySTX]

Thanks Jim, I am not an expert. I don't even have a finished bike yet. But I do know that terain, weather, vehicle weight, and rideing style all play a part in how much range you get,. My neck of the woods is quite hilly, no less than four 20% grades in town to choose from. Also I'm useing 20 inch rims with fat tires on my hubs. So in the interest of haveing a safety margin for riders, that is the formula I adopted. No harm in finding out you have more power than you expected, plenty of headaches for not haveing enough. Also as I can't pedal at all, I asume the other guy might not want to either. Trust me, on this, I would love to be wrong, but I feel confident that we are both right, in our own way. Good to see you Jim.
Brian L.

[mwkeefer]

I'm joining the party - trying to source a few last bits to get the puppie back to mostly stock before I start a v4 Recumpence Build (may go v3 for a few reasons) using 3220 6T (6+hp continuous if needed) not that I expect to cruise that strong but it's nice to have just like a real bike...

The biggest issue I have finding now is a new, used, complete rear wheel or even just the RED rim which came with the Black extra large one (thing has a longer wheelbase than some harleys I've ridden).

If anyone happens to have a stock rear they would like to part with I'd be happy to make an offer?

Can't wait to see how the rest of your build goes !

Regards,
Mike

[RallySTX]

Mwkeefer, you might want to ask JRH at Holmes Hobbies to source you a wide rim. I have a factory wheel but I'm not very interested in selling nit. It is off the Spoiler, and has the disk brake rotor holes. The rotor is on another wheel now. I have another wheel off a OCC that is silver. It is silver, and is bent up enough that it can't be used with rim brakes any more, but still has a single freewheel, and nondisk hub. I took the tube, tire, and rim strip off for my other bike. I have a complete OCC bike for sale in original shape. But again, the hub is nondisk brake type, but the rim is much straighter. That bike can go for $100 plus shipping. Trouble is, that charge will make it a two hundred dollar bike. I have pics of the bike, and can get them for the rims if needed.

http://www.choppersus.com/store/product ... -4-Silver/
http://www.holmesbikes.com/
Brian L.

[TopCat]

Hi guy's,

I got a new motor last week. I had to settle on a 36v 1000watt motor like 500watter I had. I ended up getting this motor as I haven't had any replies from Superkids about there BMC 1500W super scooter motor.
Having now got the new motor I need a new controller. I searched all over EBay and the only 36V 1000watt controller I could find was a -

YIYUM YK43.


Looking at the wiring (only 3 main wires) im assuming that the RED postive wire is shared by the batts and the motor like so...

Taken from TNC Scooters. Wiring diagram. http://www.tncscooters.com/YK42-3.php


Notes.
1. The Motor and Battery connectors on the YK42-3 controller share a common positive (RED) wire. The positive lead of the controller is attached to the positive lead of the battery and the positive lead of the motor.
2. When connecting the controller to the battery a small spark may occur this is normal.
3. Make your battery connection your last connection.
4. Controller uses standard Hall Effect (3 - Wire) throttle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The thing is! I need my motor to run in reverse. WOULD swapping the GREEN and RED wires from the controller to the motor work or would doing this harm the controller in anyway?

Regards
Tom

[liveforphysics]

Swapping red and green should do it, IF the motor is the type of brushed motor that will be happy spinning backwards (which it likely is).

[REdiculous]

I'd check so I'd know for sure. My brushes were advanced pretty far in the wrong direction and it only took a couple minutes to pop it open and rotate the brushes and brush holders.....I'm using a different motor though.

[TopCat]

SMOKING HEATING UP MOTOR???

What am I doing wrong?


I wired up my new controller and lifted up the back of my bike and turned the throttle to test it, it ran ok.
I then hauled my chopper outside and got it ready for a trip down town. I set off pretty steady along the street path and when I got to the main road I opened up the throttle, I got about 10/15 yards and there was a puff of white smoke from my makeshift battery box? I took the bike back home and opened up the batt box, thinking I'd blown my new controller? It turned out that the tape I had put on the + & - wires of the motor had melted?

The next day I taped on some thicker wire 12awg (the wire was used basicly as an extension as the motor wires were to short) and set off once again. This time I took the bike a spin around the block to test out the motor/controller etc. Well I went a distance of about 100 yards around the block and when I parked the bike up at the house the motor was smoking? I then decided to make the same trip into town as I did the day before. I only got about 10 or so more yards than previous trip when the throttle stopped responding? I took the bike back home and opened up the batt box. More melted wires?

Over the next couple of days I put the new 36V 1000w controller on my push trailer with my old 36v 500w motor and use it with my mountian bike, it pushed me along fine until the chain slipped and twisted the motor on its mounting.... bugger.

Today I thought I'd redo the controller wiring with bullit connectors rather than tape. I took the motor off my bike to solider bullit connectors onto the wires, I then ran into my first problem? The new pack of 4mm bullit connectors I got doesn't fit my old 4mm connectors??? Shit!!.

Word of warning. Dont buy 4mm bullit connectors from different suppliers as they may not fit with the one's you already have

After redoing all my wiring with new 4mm connectors I wired up the motor/controller/throttle on my kitchen worktop. I turned the throttle to test everything was working ok. The motor ran for about 20/30 seconds before it started smoking? I tried it a few times and each time the motor started smoking after a short spin up? the motor was also starting to get warm to the touch. I then though i'd reverse the motor wires so the the motor would run in its normal direction. I ran the motor this way a couple of times but it still started smoking after 20/30 seconds of run time?

Im now at a loss as to why the motor is smoking and heating up? If its smoking and heating up sitting on my worktop theres no point putting it all back on my bike as it wouldn't last 2 minutes before something melted or went pop.

This is the setup....

MOTOR.
Electric E scooter 36 volt 1000 watt Motor chain drive.

Ebay.... Item number: 230718290357

CONTROLLER.
Electric E Scooter Bike Motor Controller 36V 1000W YC43.

Ebay.... Item number: 170355174371

WIRING OF MOTOR/CONTROLLER.
Controller Black wire to Battery Power negative.
Controller Red wire to Motor and battery positive.
Controller Blue wire to Motor negative.

Anyone any ideas as to why the motor is smoking/heating up without any load on it?

Regards
Tom

[RallySTX]

Ona workbench with no load, it should only heat up if there's already internal damage to the bearings, or if there's a problem electrically. Take a DMM and check the wires from the controller for proper signal, and the motor wires for proper resistance. Spin the motor by hand to check for resistance, and slop in the shaft. In retrospect tape is the last thing I would use to make a connection with on a exposed vehicle harness. Me thinks it was the high resistance in those taped up connections that may have caused the controller or motor to fail. Always use connectors designed above the power levels you will be using. Good to hear from you. You should post more often.
Brian L.

[TopCat]

Ona workbench with no load, it should only heat up if there's already internal damage to the bearings, or if there's a problem electrically. Take a DMM and check the wires from the controller for proper signal, and the motor wires for proper resistance. Spin the motor by hand to check for resistance, and slop in the shaft.
Brian L.

DMM/Wires/Signal/Resistance .....youv'e lost me?

In retrospect tape is the last thing I would use to make a connection with on a exposed vehicle harness. Me thinks it was the high resistance in those taped up connections that may have caused the controller or motor to fail. Always use connectors designed above the power levels you will be using.

I ran my old 500w motor with wires (extensions) taped up for months until I went any distance (about 7 mile without peddling) and burnt it out. The 500w motor still works but not as good as it did when new.

Good to hear from you. You should post more often.

I would post more often if I had anything to post about but as you see anything electric bike related blows up in my face.
Im now starting to get pissed off with it all as anything I buy seems to end up as a waste of money

Regards
Tom

[RallySTX]

Yeah Tom, a DMM is a digital volt/ohm meter, or digital multi meter. What I was driving at was to check the controller to see what it actually is doing when you power it up. The volts it's sending to the motor, and such. Well you know the hobby, if it can go wrong it usually will, in the most spectacular way, and at the worst time. I don't want you to quit, but if you do, I would be interested in your batteries, and the bike. Hope you figure things out, and can post your successful story here.
Brian L.

[farmkid4]

LoL i have a 32' PC Monitor and i cant see mor than the rear wheel of the pic ....

I seen plenty of those schwins with motors on them, sit down and read through some of the stickies you will soon be up to speed...

Welcome to ES...

KiM

I 32 foot monitor!!! where in the world did you get it!!

Great looking build!

[amberwolf]

Something is heavily loading that motor down; my first guess is the gearing is still too tall, or else something is causing drag on the motor or chain or wheel.

If it is heating up the wires enough to smoke tape on it, that's pretty damned hot! It's pulling way way too much current, and that happens generally because of too high a load at too slow a (motor) speed.

If the motor is allowed to spin really fast while driving the wheel at a slower speed, it's still usually ok, but hwen the motor is dragged down to a slow speed trying to keep the wheel speed up, it causes the mtoro to draw lots of current which heats it up pretty quick, and after a while that can cause unhappy things.

To let the motor spin fast while the wheel spins slow, you usually have to have small gears on the motor and large ones on the wheel. IF that makes the wheel speed too slow even at full throttle, you'd either need higher total voltage, or you'd need a multispeed transmission for the motor-to-wheel. Even just a two-speed can be enough, in such a situation, with the right ratios.