geared kona dirt jump frame

[flyinmonkie]

The motor bracket is basically sorted now with 2 U-bolts and 2 longer bolts for the water bottle holes. Though looking at the chain lines, I'm not sure the motor will stay where it is. I will be able to get a single pedal speed where it is but may have some issues with the chain stay. When I get the jack shaft I will try some chain lines and maybe move the motor to get a better one. I have some options with this drive, which is why I made it the way I did. More to come once the jack shaft arrives.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

Lipo, controller, and throttle are on their way. I also got a Turnigy watt meter to keep an eye on things once it all starts running. I will be going to check on my jack shaft today. Hopefully it is done and I can work on alignment and motor placement while I wait for the rest of the stuff. I have emailed Gary (GGoodrum) to ask about his LVC boards to see if they would work and to see exactly what I need.

That pretty much covers it for parts. I need to get a freewheel for the motor output and finish tuning the bike. Then it is waiting for parts to arrive and figuring out where and how I am going to attach the batteries and controller. More to come soon.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

The eno from Luke showed up this avo. Below are some pics. Thanks Luke, err a Luke's dad Mike, according to the accompanying note. No luck on the jack shaft. It should be done early next week. I will push forward on the bike itself. Now that I have the eno I can set up the pedal drive and give that a go. More later.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

Hey guys,

While I am waiting on my batteries to arrive, as well as other parts, I thought I would get a few things cleared up about balancing and charging Lipos. I have read the Lipo care thread from start to finish, but I am still a little confused about putting several packs together to make a bigger pack. Basically, I have 2 5800 Zippy Flightmax 6s1p 30c 22.2v lipos. I want to put them in series to get 44.4v and in the future, I will probably order 2 more to put in parallel to extend my range. I have emailed GGoodrum about using one of his LVC boards, but haven't heard back from him yet.

Basically, when I get the packs do I need to balance the 2 packs together to hook them in series and if so, what it is the best way to do that? Also, I have an imax B6 charger (pictured below). Can I charge both the packs at the same time in parallel with this charger, or do I need to charge them separately? If I can't charge them in parallel with this charger, what charger can? Keep in mind I am new to Lipo and want a simple solution that is easy and safe, preferably off the shelf.

Also, since I haven't heard from Gary, does anyone know if there are any problems with his LVC boards and a brushed motor and controller? Also, with the batteries I have, will I need one or 2 boards to series the packs, and if I get another 2 packs will I need more LVC boards. Lastly, can I get them completely assembled, or are they a kit that I have to solder together?

Thanks guys. Parts will be coming in soon so more build pics soon.

[GGoodrum]

For some reason, I didn't get the email, but I just answered your PM. First of all, no problem using the LVC boards with your brushed Currie setup. It still uses a hall-based throttle. Here's how you would connect the LVC opto output:

LVC-Throttle Connections-v4.1.2.png (124.86 KiB) Viewed 1138 times

This shows a 24s setup, with four LVC/parallel adapter boards, and you would just need two, but the idea is the same.

For the pack connections, this is how to connect a typical 12s2p setup:

LVC-Pack Connections-v4.1.2.png (75.2 KiB) Viewed 1137 times

The main leads are paralleled at the total pack level, but the balancer plugs allow the cells to also be connected in parallel at the cell level. When two, or more, cells are connected in parallel, they will equalize to the exact same voltage, and from that point forward, can be considered as one bigger cell. Not shown are the balancer output connections. These can be the same sort of 7-pin JST-XH pigtails like those that come on the packs, but I like to use better connectors and heavier, 18-gauge wire. Usually, I use Molex MicroFit 3.0mm plugs and connectors.

BM Booster-19.jpg (99.76 KiB) Viewed 1137 times

I use matching connectors/pigtails on the balancers we are doing:

6s LiPo Balancer-05.jpg (164.69 KiB) Viewed 1138 times

For your setup, using the 6s charger you already have, you could simply use the 7-pin JST-XH pigtails, one on each LVC board. You could leave the setup connected in series, and simply charge each 6s section separately, but I would add an extra set of charge wires. The last thing you want ot be doing is plugging and unplugging the individual packs, just for charging. You do it once, and you will be looking at MeanWell pricing, just like the rest of us.

-- Gary

[flyinmonkie]

Thanks again Gary. I got your PM and replied. The diagrams are very helpful. I think I have it figured out. I'll make sure to post my wire diagram before I set it all up so you guys can poke holes in it before I burn my house down.

This waiting for parts is almost as bad as waiting for xmas.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

After some debate about my jack shaft size choice (15mm to fit my freewheel adapters), I decided to stick with it. The debate was that it is an odd size and I have to get it custom made. My options where modifying the adapters I have and the bearing tube I already had made up. So, as I said I will get the custom shaft made. If it turns out I have trouble with my bearings, I guess I'll get a new bearing tube and motor mount made. I would like the bearings and jack shaft be easily source able and replaceable, but that may come later.

I am happy to say I have ordered a couple of Gary's LVC boards, and a set of Alex DM24 24" wheels. When it all gets here it will be big time build time. My last big task (other than finding the final motor position) is to decide where and how to mount the batteries. I am debating either in the triangle or on a rack on the back. Not sure how a rack would look on a DJ bike.

Clay

[deecanio]

Hi FM,

i'm glad Gary posted that too, i'm sure we're not the only ones who don't really get how the bms works.
I wouldn't worry about your custom shaft either, i have a tapered one with keyway for my 11t drive 219 sprocket, might be an idea to have two made at the time tho, nice to have a spare and not much more cost than one, my vote goes for in triangle everytime, best place to protect your packs incase of crash

D

[flyinmonkie]

Cheers D. Yeah, Gary has given a very clear picture of how to wire the LVC into the packs and the controller. Makes life easier when you deal with helpful people with good customer service.

Mostly worried about the bearings. They are 14mm id x 24mm od and only 5mm wide. We will see how they hold up.

If I put the packs on a rack on the back, they will be under the rack and between the frame of the rack. The will be very protected wherever I put them.

Speaking of batteries... Mine arrived today along with my watt meter!!! I'd have a pic, but my camera battery is dead. They are so small!! You really don't appreciate it until you are holding one in your hand. It will be so much easier to find a place and mount these compared to 3 18 amp hour 12v SLA's.

Getting excited now that parts are arriving!

Clay

[AussieJester]

+1 props to Gary's post, he always seems to make complicated (complicated to us anyway) electronics understandable
to meat heads like us haha.. I use those boards Gary pictured monkie man absolutely
brilliant idea, i grabbed the Battery Medic booster to also brilliant bit of equipment well
worth the money IMHO

Best of luck...

KiM

[flyinmonkie]

Hey Kim,

I'll see how my charger goes, but from what I have read I'll probably end up with a battery medic as well. In the mean time, I'll watch my voltages and the balance of the cells closely.

Well,I charged my camera battery today so here is a pic of my batteries and watt meter. I think I'll have my wheels tomorrow, which means I can set up my rear hub and start looking at my chain alignment.

Clay

Seems I forgot the pic, so here it is.

[flyinmonkie]

Wheels arrived the other day. I'll pics posted soon. I also finally got my custom jackshaft. Looks pretty good, but the end of my bearing tube that was welded to the motor plate has changed size a bit. That means the perfectly milled portion of the bearing tubs is now just a hair too small for the bearing. I'll sand it out a bit so the bearing fits and I can build up the drive unit. Wit the wheels, I can sort out the drive placement and chain alignment while I wait for the controller and Gary's LVC boards to arrive.

I have also started to sort out how I am going to wire it all up. The directions for the watt meter show it between the battery and the controller. I kind of would like it visible while riding, which means on the handle bars. It seems like a long run for the battery wires though. Any thoughts on whether it needs to be visible while riding and if there is an issue with have a long run of wire between the batteries and the controller?

I am also contemplating how to mount my batteries and controller this time. I don't think there will be any diamond plate on this bike. I have moved away from my ready source of it. lol

Clay

[AussieJester]

And you will be getting at least another 2 Zippy packs right?

KiM

[flyinmonkie]

Kim,

Yes, I am sure I will eventually... well probably sooner than later, but I will get it up and running with the 2 packs I have. I may try 22.2v just to see how it goes before I go to 44.4v. I'm sure I'll go to 44.4v pretty quick though.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

I have checked the balance of my batteries with my charger. One pack is great, no more than 0.01 out between cells. My other pack is up to 0.20 out between cells. I have had it on the balance mode of my charger for quite some time, but I have been careful to watch the individual cell voltage and not let it go above 4.2v. Below is a picture of the cell levels of the pack that is out. Will I be able to bring this pack into balance and if so, what is the best option for doing that? Or is this a warranty claim?

I am putting my rear wheel together and may have some pics this evening of some chain alignment and the wheels on without tires. I am now just waiting on my controller and my LVC boards, which are both in the mail. After I get those and figure out the final placement of the motor and drive, I will sort the wiring and the battery and controller placement.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

Sorry no pictures. I didn't get as much done as I thought I would. I did figure out I can't put my motor on the top of the down tube. The motor chain runs right into my front derailleur and then hits the chain stay. The motor will now go just behind and below the seat. The jackshaft will be just below the top tube and in front of the seat tube. This will keep the motor chain away form the front derailleur and give me plenty of clearance for the pedal chain.

I did set up the rear wheel with the pedal sprockets and the splinned eno. Man that eno is tight. I still have a little bit to persuade the eno on, but it is a trial fit. I may be a little zealous in my gearing from previous experience, but I'll find out when I get it up and running.

I have run another balance and discharge cycle my battery pack that was out of balance. With this discharge it is coming into balance well. It is only 0.07v outs of balance now and getting closer.

I am still waiting to hear input from you guys on how long of wires I can use for the watt meter. Also, Gary's drawings and explanation on how to sett up his LVC boards and how to connect the throttle are fantastic and very helpful. Despite that I am still a little fuzzy on charging several packs at once. After reading the Lipo care thread and seeing it posted in many places that you can charge lipos in parallel, I have not seen a detailed description of how to wire the packs to do that. Also, if you need a special charger or a meanwell to do that, or if you can use a standard lipo charger like my imax B6. Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Clay

[GGoodrum]

I have checked the balance of my batteries with my charger. One pack is great, no more than 0.01 out between cells. My other pack is up to 0.20 out between cells. I have had it on the balance mode of my charger for quite some time, but I have been careful to watch the individual cell voltage and not let it go above 4.2v. Below is a picture of the cell levels of the pack that is out. Will I be able to bring this pack into balance and if so, what is the best option for doing that? Or is this a warranty claim?

These cells should balance out fine, but it is just going to take some time. These inexpensive balancing chargers will eventually get the cells balanced, but it might take several cycles. I think most of these time out after two hours. You don't have to worry about the cells going over 4.2V, as the charger will keep that from happening, but the balancing portion of these only passes about 150-200mA of shunt current, so it takes time.

-- Gary

[flyinmonkie]

Thanks Gary,

After a second balance and discharge cycle they have balanced out nicely. Now if I'm hooking them in series, do I have to balance the 2 packs together? What is the best way to do that? I know I have heard Matt S. say it somewhere, and I'll have a look to see if I can find it as well.

Clay

[AussieJester]

I am still waiting to hear input from you guys on how long of wires I can use for the watt meter.

Obviously the shorter the better...

l. Despite that I am still a little fuzzy on charging several packs at once. After reading the Lipo care thread and seeing it posted in many places that you can charge lipos in parallel, I have not seen a detailed description of how to wire the packs to do that.

You joking right ...if you want to charge your packs in parallel...don't you think it might make sense to connect them in parallel? I guess not...OH haha thats right my bad your a Kiwi i keep forgetting

With GGoodrum boards...i connect two packs in series (make sure packs are perfectly balanced) so i have a 22v 10ah packs, then i take the balance taps from one of the 22v packs and plug them into the GGooodrum parallel adapter board (call it board A)... I then take the second parallel adapter board(call it board B) and the balance tap from the other 22v pack and plug it in to the adapter board(Board B)...do the same with remaining packs until you have filled all the spots on the parallel adapter board. You then take the discharge leads. positive and negative...and group all positives together and all negatives together i.e you parallel them! If you wish to charge them in bulk you simply plug in a charger capable of 50v. To balance, hook your balancer to the balancing taps coming from the parallel adapter boards. Couldnt be simpler, you will know when you plug the wrong wires where though, you get melted wires with a simultaneous FLASH and lots of blackened fingers (KFF)

KiM

[flyinmonkie]

LOL Kim,

Thanks, that does help. I can wire up the batteries in parallel and plug them right in to the wall socket then, huh? Just kidding. I figured I paralleled the mains wires. I just wasn't sure how I sorted the balance wires and just wanted to be positive how I exactly hooked them to the charger. I'd rather not plug it all up and see a large glittering spark and lose all my fingers and burn down my house because I thought I had it all sorted.

I did some more research and figured out how to charge the packs in parallel. The LVC boards should make it a lot easier.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

LVC boards arrived from Gary yesterday. I am just waiting on my controller now and some time to wire it all up and finish it off. I still haven't decided on how to attach the batteries to the bike, but I am leaning towards pvc tubes. They may end up a bit big and bulky looking. I also have to attach the controller. Will sort that out when it gets here.

Clay

[flyinmonkie]

The controller has shown up and I have tires as well. I am waiting on some bearings and another freewheel and I have to get some connectors and wire to finish this off and be ready for a ride. I have made some changes to the motor bracket and have decided the second location will not work either. With 24" wheels, I may be able to get the drive bearing tube between the seat tube and the rear wheel. If that doesn't work, I'll go back to my second idea of having the motor and drive on the down tube and deal with routing the chain around the lower chain stay. I will have to loose at least one gear for the pedals, if not all of them, but I can deal with that. I'll post pics of the controller and the bike with wheels and tire on it soon.

Clay

[GGoodrum]

Sorry, I missed this before. Anyway, here's a pic that should help show how to connect the packs:

LVC-Pack Connections-v4.1.2.png (75.2 KiB) Viewed 504 times

As Kim says, make sure the packs are balanced before plugging them into the parallel adapter portion of the LVC boards. I usually don't bother paralleling the main discharge leads. I just plug the positive of the 1st pack into the negative of the second pack, and then do the same thing with the other two packs. I then just parallel them at the pack level.

-- Gary

[AussieJester]

I usually don't bother paralleling the main discharge leads. I just plug the positive of the 1st pack into the negative of the second pack. I then just parallel them at the pack level.

Gary, just curious, is there any difference in performance or packs staying better balanced doing it this way over
the method i/we used with my pack? i.e grouping the + & - leads together after packs are connected in series.

KiM

[flyinmonkie]

Thanks Gary,

You did post that pic a page earlier. I have the batteries under control now and I think I have charging in hand. Thanks for all the input Gary and Kim. I may just keep from burning down my house, lol. Nah, I'll be just fine. It takes me a little bit to get my head around electronics, but once I do Ia m sorted. I figure better to sort it before you go plug everything in and get alight show.

As far as the bike itself goes...

I have the motor position figures out and the mount and bracket all sorted now. Paint is drying and a second coat goes on tomorrow. The reduction unit will straddle the seat post with the final drive behind the seat post and the motor in front of it in the triangle. I need to fab a couple of spacers for the jackshaft and the rear hub. May just be a few washers for the jackshaft. Then I need to cut down the jackshaft to length. I'll mount it all up and get some pics tomorrow. The chain lines are pretty good. The motor chain may just hit the lower chain stay in the highest gear, but I will deal with that if it happens. I need to add a chain tensioner to the pedal chain to get the use of the front gears. I will also need a new front derailleur and shifter if I want to use all 3 gears. The derailleur and shifter I have are a for a 2 speed. I'll start with a single speed to get me going. I don't plan on pedaling much.

With all that sorted, I can move on to mounting the batteries and the controller. As I said earlier, it is all here now so I can concentrate on that part. I am still leaning towards putting them in tubes and mounting them parallel to the top tube. I think I could then mount the controller underneath them. I'll mock it up and see how it looks tomorrow and go from there.

I'll get out my camera tomorrow and take a bunch of pics to show where I am up to and what all that stuff I just said means. It's late now, so time to get some sleep.

Clay