Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby LI-ghtcycle » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:16 pm

I can't say for sure since I haven't had my 63-74 up and running just yet, but my E-fight 110 wasn't loud at all, so you can get very stealthy motors, and I imagine set-ups that are 5S with the smaller motor (43 MM?) wouldn't be as loud.
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Hillhater » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:52 pm

Well the Tgy 63-54 on 5S that i have rigged is also a screamer.
I am suspecting it is an "electronic" sound ( non mechanical) that may vary depending on the ESC settings such as timing etc.
PS:- I found it surprising that to program the ESC they use the motor as a "Speaker" for the programming tones :o
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Hillhater » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:37 am

Hey , Oatnet, have you got your bike on the road yet ??
We need some feedback on the motor performance and if you are seeing the "sync loss" problem ?
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Prepping the throttlizer, or, 'What's that burning smell?"

Postby oatnet » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:56 pm

Sorry for the Delay hillhater, I have been hoping that the servo tester was the source of the sync problems, so I have been waiting for a throttleizer before street testing. I paid $95 for it on the 12th with a promise of a 3 day turnaround. It shipped on Wed the 16th but then it wasn't, then it shipped again on Saturday the 18th, and got here on Monday the 20th, so count on 8 days or more for delivery, longer if you are not as close as I am. I felt slightly raped :oops: by paying $25 for a proprietary build of $5 USB programming interface, but oh well.

These days Sunday is my only shot at free time, so I was all excited to wrap this project up, and get it on the road and off my mind.

That excitement quickly faded. I am really, really, really disappointed in the throttleizer's build quality. The power leads were different lengths, and there is no indication of which side is batt and which side is ESC. The temp sensor leads are short enough to be useless, so I have to clip them and extend them. The cable for the rarely-used usb interface is long enough to lasso cattle; after tuning that will haunt me endlessly unless I make this a rodeo bike. :roll:

The shrinkwrap covering was way too big to fit in the space, so it had to come off, and that is when the bad stuff really became apparent. I cut the pins for the LED, since one leg was poking into the casing of a white wire. The metal backs of the two fets had been pushed into contact, and the legs were not well completely seated before soldering, so a lot of current will go through the thin part of the leg. One of the black power leads had a split casing, like it was cut with wire strippers, then cut again longer. That power lead also had lots of stray strands floating about. While looking at the loose strands, I realized that it also had a cold solder joint that had cracked - if I put 100a through that lead I'd get a nice flash and wonder if it was something I had done. :evil:

I soldered on a standard throttle connector (I'd have like to see it come with one installed since 99% of us use the 4-pin xlyte style), but now I am frustrated by needing to do a lot of repair work to get this up to snuff (or at least what I have detected so far), so I am bagging on it for today. :evil: I probably won't get a response on which set of power leads to solder to the ESC today, so that means I'd have to wait until NEXT Sunday to have the time to attempt an install it again. Maybe I should just wait for the Kepler interface, as I was really pleased with the build quality on the Kepler Drive. :D

Hey Kepler have you considered building the swingarm with mounting points for hall sensors? A simple bolt-on with screw holes for the big and little motors, and voila. I think eliminating the sync issue with hall sensors would eliminate the slow-start issue (might even be able to start from stopped), and if I could pump watts in as volts instead of amps with a nice reliable sensored ebike controller, I could eliminate a lot of resistance heat. I might whip up a bolt-on on the veritical mill in my Saturday machining class if I can get time and material.

-JD

shrinkwrapped_0794.JPG
Here it is as delivered, in a lumpy, uneven shrinkwarp.
shrinkwrapped_0794.JPG (54.61 KiB) Viewed 869 times


with kepler_0795.JPG
With the Kepler - it looks like if you remove the shrinkwrap, it might fit the dimensions I supplied. Note the gunk trail on the Kepler drive where the tape was.
with kepler_0795.JPG (74.86 KiB) Viewed 873 times


bottom_0806.JPG
Hmm....
bottom_0806.JPG (47.9 KiB) Viewed 873 times


spikes_0808.JPG
I should have taken a picture before I trimmed the legs to the LED. The one in back was poking into this white wire. The tops of those two FETS were in contact with each other.
spikes_0808.JPG (48.94 KiB) Viewed 869 times


splitCasing_0804.JPG
Measure once, cut twice. Notice the strands frayed about.
splitCasing_0804.JPG (52.09 KiB) Viewed 873 times


stray wires_0809.JPG
Here are more strands - I wonder if that one pointed at the leg of a capacitor is close enough to arc.
stray wires_0809.JPG (34.04 KiB) Viewed 869 times


cracked_0806.JPG
Notice the crack in the solder epoxy on this cold-solder joint.
cracked_0806.JPG (51.14 KiB) Viewed 873 times
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Ypedal » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:11 pm

Holy Shit !~!!!!!!!! :shock:
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:21 pm

That has to be the crappiest bit of kit I've seen in a long time.

Whoever sells this stuff should be truly ashamed of themselves - it's worse than some of the very poorest lash-ups I've seen from amateurs. To charge good money for such crap quality is simply unacceptable.

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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby amberwolf » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:45 pm

That's even worse than my own lazy-fixes for things on my bad days. :( And those can be pretty bad. :( I wouldn't pay for *postage* for such a poorly-made "brand new" device, much less nearly a hundred bucks. :evil:

I really like this:
file-2.jpg
file-2.jpg (26.7 KiB) Viewed 756 times

:roll: I wonder how many more of those there are under the epoxy where you can't see them till they blow it up at first power-on?
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Hillhater » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:31 pm

Sorry for the Delay hillhater, I have been hoping that the servo tester was the source of the sync problems, so I have been waiting for a throttleizer before street testing.


No need to apologise Oatnet, i know how frustrating it is when you meet these unexpected issues which you had hoped to avoid.
you got a real bad deal there with that Throttleizer, but i sure hope it works and eliminates the "sync" issue ...when you get it sorted. ! .. a am watching eagerly !
But even if the Throttleizer works, ...i am reluctant to risk buying a shoddy piece if crap like that !

EDIT
Holy Crap ! ... i have just realised you are already using the CC 100A ESC , and yet you too have the "sync" issue ! :( :?
I had hoped that ESC would overcome that issue compare to cheaper ESC's, but i guess not ! .... ( bugger !.. i need a new plan...and probably some hall sensors !)
Last edited by Hillhater on Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prepping the throttlizer, or, 'What's that burning smell

Postby Hillhater » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:23 pm

oatnet wrote: I think eliminating the sync issue with hall sensors would eliminate the slow-start issue (might even be able to start from stopped), and if I could pump watts in as volts instead of amps with a nice reliable sensored ebike controller,


I have been thinking similar thoughts ...BUT ..
are there any such... " reliable sensored ebike controllers" ... that can be bought "off the shelf" without needing mods to handle the 50+A @ 18-24V that we need for these motors ??
Thud commented that he has had better reliability from Castle ESC's than Ebike controllers on sensored RC motors :cry:
I fear we would be in danger of trading one problem for another !! :roll: :?

Kepler' .. do you think your interface will help in any way with these sync issues some of us are seeing ?
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby recumpence » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:57 pm

I have not run the HV100. But, I do run 160s and they are flawless for syncing. Bear in mind, though, that the motor itself can be an issue. My early AXI ourunner was easy to lose sync with on my HV110 ESC, but the Astros and my Plettenberg never lose sync no matter how hard I abuse them.

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Re: Prepping the throttlizer, or, 'What's that burning smell

Postby Kepler » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:42 pm

oatnet wrote:Hey Kepler have you considered building the swingarm with mounting points for hall sensors? A simple bolt-on with screw holes for the big and little motors, and voila. I think eliminating the sync issue with hall sensors would eliminate the slow-start issue (might even be able to start from stopped), and if I could pump watts in as volts instead of amps with a nice reliable sensored ebike controller, I could eliminate a lot of resistance heat. I might whip up a bolt-on on the veritical mill in my Saturday machining class if I can get time and material.

-JD

Sorry to see the build isnt going as smoothly as planed. I think you are going have alot of trouble getting the Throttleizer in their even with the heat shrink removed. The main wires are very stiff on those units and doesnt bend well. I think you will need to consider mounting the Throttleizer outside the drive.

No I haven't considered halls and to be honest, it’s not on the agenda at this stage. Although there are lots of obvious advantages with a hall setup, I think keeping the drive super compact and main components cheap and off the shelf is a bigger advantage. :)

Sorry about the tape residue. :oops: Easy to get off with a bit of solvent though.
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Re: Prepping the throttlizer, or, 'What's that burning smell

Postby Kepler » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:27 pm

Hillhater wrote:
oatnet wrote: I think eliminating the sync issue with hall sensors would eliminate the slow-start issue (might even be able to start from stopped), and if I could pump watts in as volts instead of amps with a nice reliable sensored ebike controller,


I have been thinking similar thoughts ...BUT ..
are there any such... " reliable sensored ebike controllers" ... that can be bought "off the shelf" without needing mods to handle the 50+A @ 18-24V that we need for these motors ??
Thud commented that he has had better reliability from Castle ESC's than Ebike controllers on sensored RC motors :cry:
I fear we would be in danger of trading one problem for another !! :roll: :?

Kepler' .. do you think your interface will help in any way with these sync issues some of us are seeing ?


Yes, I do see most of the sync issues going away. As an example, with my interface, I can hold full throttle at a stand still and the drive will wait until the bike is moving at a few MPH before it starts to ramp power. Still holding full throttle, the bike then smoothly ramps up without sync issues and without drawing excessive current. Speed is regulated like normal but by measuring wheel speed and assigning a dynamic current limit based on this wheel speed, we can ensure the engagement of the motor is both smooth and progressive.

As Recumbence has indicated though, some motor combinations are better then others. The motor you are using unfortunately seems to be quite susceptible to sync issues and perhaps still might have issues even with my interface.

To be clear, my interface is being designed specifically for my drive so that it can be sold as a complete unit to general public rather then being limited only to trusted enthusiasts like yourselves who understand the associated idiosyncrasies. This is main focus but at the same time, it will be available as stand alone RC interface for around $100 AUD including throttle. However, the interface is not for everyone and is not designed for high powered, high voltage RC setups. It is specifically designed for low to medium power setups (1500W max) and optimized for friction drives.

We are now at the beta testing stage and I am pleased to report that the majority of my wish list has been fulfilled. However, there is still plenty to do. Realistic release date is still a couple of months off yet and I apologize for this. However, it needs to be a solid quality product that works the first time.

Here are a few pictures of the interface setup and my test bike complete with data screen used for the de bugging process.
Attachments
P1010001-3.JPG
Size comparison between the interface and a K-Force 100A ESC
P1010001-3.JPG (104.62 KiB) Viewed 715 times
P1010005-2.JPG
Base board with buzzer attached
P1010005-2.JPG (106.78 KiB) Viewed 715 times
P1010007.JPG
All cables plugged in. Din goes to throttle, wheel sensor, speedo. Servo wire next to it is for the full display. Display currently used for de bugging but is is full feature display ready. USB programming cable attached to show where it plugs in.
P1010007.JPG (90.39 KiB) Viewed 715 times
P1010009.JPG
Optional ESC attachment method
P1010009.JPG (95.34 KiB) Viewed 719 times
P1010006-1.JPG
Test platform
P1010006-1.JPG (109.71 KiB) Viewed 719 times
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby kevo » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:56 pm

Kepler,
Excellent progress, count me in on the throttle interface waiting list. My Kepler drive w/ 63-74 and Turnigy 85A ESC has no sync issues I know of with three different bikes.
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Hillhater » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:00 pm

recumpence wrote:I have not run the HV100. But, I do run 160s and they are flawless for syncing. Bear in mind, though, that the motor itself can be an issue. My early AXI ourunner was easy to lose sync with on my HV110 ESC, but the Astros and my Plettenberg never lose sync no matter how hard I abuse them.

Matt


Thanks Matt,
I would hate to think we have to go to a HV160 just to run a 1kW drive ! :?
Is there any clue as to common factors in "problem" motors .. KV rating ? operating voltage, ? etc..
At the moment , some of us are using completely different motors and ESC's but have similar problems, whilst Kepler doesnt have the problem on similar kit (K force100a ESC, Turnigy 63-74, 200kv motor ) and EVTodd likewise seems to avoid the issue but with another different combo ?

Kepler... good work on the interface. From your comments, i am guessing its the current control that prevents sync problems ?.... or am i out of my depth again . :lol:
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Hillhater » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:02 pm

kevo wrote:Kepler,
Excellent progress, count me in on the throttle interface waiting list. My Kepler drive w/ 63-74 and Turnigy 85A ESC has no sync issues I know of with three different bikes.
Cheers,
Kevo


Thats good news kevo, what pack voltage are you running and what throttle interface ?
Have you changed any of the ESC's settings ?
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby AussieJester » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:09 pm

oatnet wrote:

That excitement quickly faded. I am really, really, really disappointed in the throttleizer's build quality. The power leads were different lengths, and there is no indication of which side is batt and which side is ESC. The temp sensor leads are short enough to be useless, so I have to clip them and extend them. The cable for the rarely-used usb interface is long enough to lasso cattle; after tuning that will haunt me endlessly unless I make this a rodeo bike. :roll:


Exactly my words when i took the top off mine to see if there was anything obviously stopping it from working,
it hooked up on the pc several times to be programmed then nadda.. No apology from Andrew just an offer to fix it if i paid for all the freight to return it and have it sent back would of worked out nearly as cheap ordering a whole new unit, not to mention the wait time, the build quality was worse than atrocious, i swear a blind man with both hands tied behind his back could solder better, strongly advise NOT buying from EVlogix. at least until such times the guy learns to solder hell! the pcb board wasn't even neatly cut it looked like it had been snapped into shape then nawed on with teeth so it fit in the box. OH...after inspecting the work more closely with a magnifying glass week or so ago, i found a single strand of wire hanging out of a dried solder join touching a trace on the board, moved it it off the trace, throttiliser worked again ...

On an unrelated note regarding the sync issues with the CC hv100 I used one myself for several months in that time the esc never lost sync with my 130kv Turnigy ...not once.

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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Kepler » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:27 pm

Hillhater wrote:
recumpence wrote:I have not run the HV100. But, I do run 160s and they are flawless for syncing. Bear in mind, though, that the motor itself can be an issue. My early AXI ourunner was easy to lose sync with on my HV110 ESC, but the Astros and my Plettenberg never lose sync no matter how hard I abuse them.

Matt


Thanks Matt,
I would hate to think we have to go to a HV160 just to run a 1kW drive ! :?
Is there any clue as to common factors in "problem" motors .. KV rating ? operating voltage, ? etc..
At the moment , some of us are using completely different motors and ESC's but have similar problems, whilst Kepler doesnt have the problem on similar kit (K force100a ESC, Turnigy 63-74, 200kv motor ) and EVTodd likewise seems to avoid the issue but with another different combo ?

Kepler... good work on the interface. From your comments, i am guessing its the current control that prevents sync problems ?.... or am i out of my depth again . :lol:


Yes it does. Sync issues mainly occur when the motor draws high current at low RPM. Since the interface is measuring wheel speed and knows when the motor is turning at lower RPM, it can map a maximum current that keeps it out of the "lost sync" zone. The negative effect is that acceleration at very low wheel speeds is quite gentle but this soon is alowed to build up as the motor and ESC get into their sweet spots.
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby kevo » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:34 am

Hillhater wrote:
kevo wrote:Kepler,
Excellent progress, count me in on the throttle interface waiting list. My Kepler drive w/ 63-74 and Turnigy 85A ESC has no sync issues I know of with three different bikes.
Cheers,
Kevo


Thats good news kevo, what pack voltage are you running and what throttle interface ?

Have you changed any of the ESC's settings ?


Voltage is 6s lipo (2 30c Zippy Flightmax 5000 mah)
No throttle interface, just 'cruise control' servo tester Mpi Mx 8340
Haven't found a throttle I like for road bike drop bars but
am looking for my wife & daughter's hybrid semi mtn bikes.
I just ran the ESC using defaults. I accelerate gradually on hills
to half throttle 1.5 millisecs and pedal hard during acceleration.
I do this to try to keep the 6374 motor from overheating on hills.
So far the ESC doesn't seem too hot, maybe Kepler's 'heat sink'?
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Kepler » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:16 pm

Drop bars just dont available suit throttles at all. Very hard to get a good set up. I have used a Currie 5K thumb throttle on the top section of the drop bars but this is not the ideal position for climbing hills.

Hopefully the velcro strip pressure throttle we are working on will will suit the drop bars better.

How are you finding the 200kv motor on 6S Kevo? Fast enough for you?
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby kevo » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:56 pm

Plenty fast on the flats, though I don't have CA or speedometer hooked up. I'm guessing maybe 27 mph. On the hills it's 18-20mph on a 5% grade with an aggressive pedal. I haven't measured 10% grades yet. Will hook up my CA to get actual speeds and current/watts drawn. One comment is the 3M outdoor strips tend to tear up fairly quickly, so I intend to go the route of belt sander's with carpet tape. I also haven't tested on long grades, but I'm pretty sure it will require stopping to allow the motor to cool. Currently I've only climbed hills roughly 800 ft or so. Mt. Diablo and the Sierra's will require a different strategy, or simply using the assist very infrequently. Am thinking about an EVTodd 1" roller setup to allow sufficient torque to maintain continuous climbing.
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Kepler » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:26 pm

Working on an add on roller setup at the moment for those who want more down low power. Basically replaces the existing motor side swing arm and mounts the motor behind its current position. A roller then goes in where the motor goes and it is driven with a timing belt pulley setup. Should have a prototype up in the next week or two.
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby kevo » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:56 pm

Excellent, can't wait to see how it turns out. In the meanwhile, totally enjoying the completely friction free mode when the motor is off and the assist when on!
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby drifter » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:37 am

Have been thinking about gearing mine down too, also not using the motor as the roller. I will be interested to see what you come up with.
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Solcar » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:27 pm

Kepler wrote:Working on an add on roller setup at the moment for those who want more down low power. Basically replaces the existing motor side swing arm and mounts the motor behind its current position. A roller then goes in where the motor goes and it is driven with a timing belt pulley setup. Should have a prototype up in the next week or two.


I like that idea because although I haven't updated my build's thread about it, I am presently working on designing a compact two stage drive that fits between the down tube and the rear wheel. It would pivot against tire from the intersection at the top of the down tube and the upper wheel tubes.
LTspice free electronics simulator help group http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/
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Re: Oatnet's 'Kepler Friction Drive' build

Postby Hillhater » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:07 pm

Hey , Oatnet... are you still with us ? :o
just wondering how things are going with the drive and if that throttleizer cured the sync issues ?
PS:... I installed a different make of servo tester, but it made no difference ! :cry:
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