Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: Spinningmagnets' Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby EVTodd » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:28 am

Miles wrote:Ah, ok.



I seem to get a lot of reactions like that from you, hmmm. Oh well.

I did re-read your post and see what you mean now though. And yes, this clutch bearing has roller bearings in it. But... And I need to find it so I´m not talking out of my ass but I recall seeing a spec sheet on that exact bearing (same one I use) that says to use supporting bearings with it. I could be wrong though.
New Tidalforce friction drive build: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=28029

My Friction Drive Outrunner Setup: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9652&start=330
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Re: Spinningmagnets' Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Miles » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:54 am

Hi Todd,

They're usually just called roller clutches if they don't have support bearings.
Ref: http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/be ... oller.aspx
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Re: Spinningmagnets' Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby dbaker » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:05 pm

Miles,

For these RC motors with 10 mm shafts, will one of these roller clutches carry the full torque of the motor? It would be cool to use one on the motor shaft pressed inside the tire roller. Compact and solves the alignment issues.
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Re: Spinningmagnets' Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Miles » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:30 pm

You may need more than one... You can see the specifications here: http://medias.ina.de/medias/en!hp.ec/1_ ... EELAb_#HFL

I prefer the self-contained CSK type but you need to fix them to the shaft (they don't do a 10mm version, though...)
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Re: Spinningmagnets' Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Hillhater » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:49 pm

spinningmagnets wrote: I saw the posts with Hillhaters synch issues (especially since its the same motor as this build). I would give him some advice about the ESC, but...I once tried to fix some electronics with a sledgehammer, and it just made it worse......


Hey, i am open to any suggestions ! :? ( and i do have a sledgehammer ! :shock: ) :wink:
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Re: Spinningmagnets' Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:13 pm

Hillhater, I am not joking when I say I am an RC noob, and also very weak on electronics. It has taken me several months of frequently reading for hours to develop a 'still foggy' opinion. Its sort-of like gravity. I still don't really understand how it works, but...I think I've figured out which way its going. There's an old saying that, "when you are trained to use a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail". I'm the guy with an entire collection of hammers...

It sounds impressive to some people when they find out I was on a nuclear-powered submarine...but if the reactor ever went out, we had a large 2-stroke diesel as a back-up (air-start, hand pump to accumulator, mechanical fuel injection). Guess which engine I ran?

I'm sure I will burn out one of these electronic widgets, but sometimes you have to stop reading, and just order a part to take a chance.
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Hillhater » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:49 pm

It sounds like we are on the same learning curve here ! 8) ...hammer in one hand , Multimeter in the other ! :lol:
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby amberwolf » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:52 pm

The hammer makes it easier to get the test probes into the batteries. ;)
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby TopCat » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:15 am

Also a noob at all this RC stuff but Im learning to wield a hammer, once I master that everything will fit together :mrgreen:

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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Miles » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:27 am

amberwolf wrote:The hammer makes it easier to get the test probes into the batteries. ;)
:lol:

Hammer probe is the tool for that :) :

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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Hillhater » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:29 am

Ahhh ! ... looks like just the tool for getting my teenage son out of bed in the mornings !
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:25 pm

Managed to drill/tap some holes and gouge out two oval slots. I decided to use 5/16"-18 bolts. Its a coarse thread, and probably bigger than neccessary, but compared to 1/4" bolts, I am less likely to break a drill-bit or thread-tap. On the underside of the top-plate, I cut out two central depressions to act as grease reservoirs (completely un-neccessary). Waiting for parts from China....

FD_005.JPG
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FD_006.JPG
FD_006.JPG (130.53 KiB) Viewed 1715 times
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:24 pm

It appears that the industry standard for an "interference fit" to serve our low power levels seems to be about 0.002". The two one-way freewheeling-bearings I am using happened to have a 0.750" Outside Diameter (OD), and I was able to find some Aluminum tube in the pile with a 0.748" Inside Diameter (ID),...the actual measurements vary from piece to piece. (of course, de-burr the tube ID before you start...)

If you are certain you will never want to press out the bearings and re-use them on something else, I suppose you 'could' epoxy them in with JB/Devcon to prevent slippage (if your available tubing has an looser ID of 0.750"-0.752").

I placed the tube section in boiling water, and the heat expansion increased the ID 0.010", just enough to easily tap the tube over the bearings. Have a hammer handy before starting, the two pieces have their respective temperatures equalize fairly quick once contact is made.

A friend suggested that the friction tape for the tops of skateboards is possibly the toughest friction tape available, compared to the tape used for steps. I might try both over time...

MAKE CERTAIN to mark the tube and both bearings before you start, so that after insertion, they are all pointing the right way...

FD_008.JPG
set the bearing on a flat and firm surface...
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FD_009.JPG
one shaft, two bearings, and a tube...
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Last edited by spinningmagnets on Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby etard » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:44 pm

HAHA!! Very funny pic Spin. :lol: It looks like this is coming together quite nicely, taking your time is gonna pay off I feel.

Is that 2 one way bearings in the aluminum tube? No spacers on the outside like the EV Warrior roller?
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:46 pm

Yes, it is just the two one-way clutch-bearings inside the tube. Just an experiment, I don't know yet how this will turn out. Tube in the pic is one-inch OD, I can order Al tube with the 0.750" ID and a 1-1/4" OD, but I will check with my local supplier this week first. If they carry it, that will be cheaper, faster, and easier for me than onlinemetals.com
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Hillhater » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:23 am

Can i borrow your reference library / "firm flat surface" sometime ! :lol:

I have just had a thought about your motor shaft to roller shaft coupling..
You can get those roller clutch bearings for a 10 mm shaft size ..
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/O ... gs/Kit8644
.. so, you could simply replace the complete motor shaft with a longer one to go straight through the roller as well as the motor stator.
. ( as discussed else ware, changing the motor shaft is simple )
..Or to use the brgs you already have, get a shop to make you a precision 1/2" stepped to 10mm shaft, not as cheap but not a big job for a CNC lathe shop.

Just a thought , it would eliminate the cost , complexity, and reliability of a coupling. :wink:

Also, found this .. 10mm -12mm coupling
Image
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:16 pm

You can borrow any book of mine you need, Hillhater. Including my 12-volume set of "Understanding a Womans Mind" (sadly, its in Latin...and the author killed himself before finishing the final 24 volumes). Thanks for the links, more options are a good thing to add to the list of possibilities. I think it 'may' actually be a good thing to have a small amount of 'slop' in the joint (rather than a single long solid shaft between motor/roller). But, that sounds like a worthwhile future experiment...

The method I'm trying has several other options discussed in this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=21380&start=15#p312809

I managed to get my shaft end-slot cutter running. Its just an experiment, but so far, I'm pleased with how its turned out. I stacked four of the 3" diameter cut-off abrasive wheels onto a 3/8" all-thread shaft, and I drive it with a cordless drill. Used some scrap I had laying around, with two cheap flanged bearings from the hardware store.

edit; I FINALLY remembered where I had seen this before! Grinhill did this on his Mk2-Build
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10635#p162911

FD_009.JPG
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FD_010.JPG
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Last edited by spinningmagnets on Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby gtadmin » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:17 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:... Including my 12-volume set of "Understanding a Womans Mind" (sadly, its in Latin...

and in an ink invisible to the male eye ...
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Hillhater » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:53 pm

gtadmin wrote:
spinningmagnets wrote:... Including my 12-volume set of "Understanding a Womans Mind" (sadly, its in Latin...

and in an ink invisible to the male eye ...


Yes , i am sure i have seen that in the "Fiction" section of the bookstore ! :roll:

Nice work on that shaft joint SM" 1 .. I love improvisation ! 8)
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:00 pm

Motor arrived in 11 days from Hobby King. Based on a new-to-you test procedure I found on an RC site, I threw together a cheap test stand to be my third hand. Its possible to fry a motor or ESC when you are new to this game (as I am).
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35216
http://aircraft-world.com/prod_datasheets/hp/motorguide/motorwiring.htm
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993

Todd originally used 36V cordless-drill packs (available from DeWalt and Milwaukee), and I felt that those would appeal to non-technical college students. Also, using higher volts can sometimes mean you need fewer heat-producing amps to do the job. I wanted to use the 28V packs, which were smaller, cheaper, and actually have a higher discharge capacity (the C-rate, meaning Current). Also, both Milwaukee and DeWalt have made long-term committments to ensure continued production of their 28V line.

Just as I was about to buy several barely-used packs from a fellow ES member, I got my hours at work cut. More time on my hands (good) but less money for parts (bad). I have settled on the 6S LiPo packs (22V-24V) for the lower price, and also to get some hands-on experience with LiPo, as I believe RC and LiPo will soon take over a large share of the E-bike market.

I've been told by a friend I will likely only get 13-MPH (21-kph) from a 250-kV motor-winding at 22V with a 1" diameter roller on a 26" wheel (I guess we'll see, should have good hill-climbing ability and low ESC heat, with no synch issues, and should start from a dead stop easily on heavy cargo bikes). I plan to also try an 1-1/4" roller, different kVs and different voltages, both on hills and the flats. I hope to log amp-draw for each. However, if I had started out with a bigger motor and higher kV, I would have always wondered about the smallest motor I considered as acceptable for my goals (63mm diameter, 10mm shaft).

"should" get 20-MPH from a 280-kV, using 6S (22V-24V) with 1-1/4" roller...

I guess I can now retire the stunt-double, which is a 5-oz can of vienna sausage (Visualize an old homeless-looking guy with calipers, wandering through a store measuring cans). Kaiser Wilhelm once said, if you like laws and sausages, don't ask how either of them are made.

FD_012.JPG
FD_012.JPG (129.81 KiB) Viewed 2631 times


Edit: added a list of other possible motors...The first # is the motor diameter in mm, the second # is the length in mm (the internal motor section, the outer motor body is longer), and the third # is the kV (RPMs per volt applied). The black motors are advertised as having better bearings. A higher kV will have a higher top speed while using the same volts, but it will also have more motor/ESC heat at low RPMs.

The first section has 8mm diameter shafts (I prefer to work with the larger 10mm when possible).

$49 63-59-259 silver
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/stor ... oduct=4572

$40 50-65-270 black
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=7709

$30 50-65-270 gold
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=5204

$24 50-65-320 gold
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=4913

$56 63-45-330 silver
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh ... oduct=2136

$30 50-65-350 gold
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=2101

$40 50-65-380 black
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=7070

$30 50-55-400 gold
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=2102

$30 50-65-400 gold
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh ... oduct=4914

$190 50-62-400
http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/m ... -4035-400/


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

10mm shafts

$60 63-74-170 black
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=7870

$60 63-74-200 gold (has additional skirt bearing)
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=3890

$45 63-64-230 blue
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=4188

$60 63-64-230 black
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=7710

$50 63-64-245 blue
http://www.hobbypartz.com/mo1602brmo.html

$56 63-54-250 gold (has additional skirt bearing)
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=5144

$44 63-64-280 gold (has additional skirt bearing)
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=2097

$45 63-54-295 blue
http://www.hobbypartz.com/mo1102brmo.html
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:48 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby Hillhater » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:01 am

spinningmagnets wrote:I've been told by a friend I will likely only get 15-MPH (24-kph) from a 250-kV motor-winding at 22V with a 1" diameter roller on a 26" wheel (I guess we'll see).


I have the same motor as you ( 63-54-250 gold) .. but direct friction drive using 5s (18.5v).
Real Results from running it with the bike on a trainer stand give me a max ,no load, speed of 57kph and a "loaded" (simulating flat road ?) speed of 44kph.
Image
So, you should have a voltage increase of 20%, but a roller diameter reduction of 60% ...
so your no load speed should be... 57kph * 1.2 * 0.4 = 27.4 kph
and a "flat road speed of.... 44kph * 1.2 * 0.4 = 21.1 kph

... but boy, you should be able to climb walls with that !

And obviously your road speed would increase in direct proportion to your roller diameter ( Just wrap a few more turns of grip tape on there ! :lol: )

:idea: Another random thought...
have you ever worked with expanding mandrels or rolls ? ... i can imagine an expanding drive roller controlled by centrifugal force !! :idea: :P
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:33 pm

Thanks for the info, hillhater. I used 4" square tubing to cut out the channel I am using, so its possible to cut the side legs to a max of 4" long instead of the 2" I am currently using. It is then possible to install a roller that is 4" in diameter, and I have found a solid hard plastic wheel that is 3" in diameter with a shaft-hole of 1/2" (among others), along with an aluminum flange that can clamp the 1/2" shaft to the side of the roller. So the 1/2" shaft provide many options from industrial parts suppliers.

I am nervous about buying one of the 50mm diameter motors (with an 8mm shaft), as it has been tricky enough (for a non-machinist with no garage) to mate the 10mm with the 1/2" (0.394" to 0.500"). That being said, the kV's of the smaller motors will provide a higher top-speed while using a simple 6S LiPo brick-sized battery.

Going to a higher voltage to get higher top-speeds from the 10mm shaft-motors changes everything too. 8S (28V), 10S (36V), and 12S (44V) are a completely different ballgame as it concerns motor kV selection. A higher voltage means specifying a more expensive charger and MUCH more expensive ESC. I've been told by several enthusiasts, never go cheap on the charger, as LiPo is the type of battery chemistry that may catch on fire if overcharged. I will also use a separate power-timer, to cut power to the charger a few minutes after the battery is typically at a full charge after having just hit the battery low warning light.

If a specific motor turns out to be a clear winner with customers, I 'may' learn how to install halls (I've saved the posts and links) so there would be a 6-FET sensored-controller option (for 36V and 48V), but if that even happens at all, its down the road a ways.

I've got the parts on their way for a 1.25" roller since many here are reporting good service with just the friction-tape. As an experiment, the 1.0" roller may have a steel sleeve clamped over it (who knows, if that will even work?). If the math ends up looking good for a 1.5" Al roller using friction-tape, I can make brass bushings to fit the 0.750-OD clutch-bearings to the appropriately-sized tubing, but I'd rather avoid that if I can. One possible option is slipping a 1.5" tube over the 1.25" tube (if they are snug enough, looks possible) plus glue and/or grub-screws...

PS, I really like the clear housing you made for your motor! My new avatar is my sons computer with a clear housing and blinky lights inside.

Does anybody have a running 8mm-shaft motor (any kV) that they don't care for much? After I fiddle with various 8mm-shaft coupling arrangements, it may not be sell-able to anyone, as I may cut the shaft shorter and grind flats onto its sides.
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:55 pm

Just ordered another set of bearings for my sons kit, when ordering from VXB, they often ask if you would like to add a 6" digital caliper for $10 plus shipping ($5 extra?, so $15-ish total). I have the same model, but as a 4" long, which I find to be more "pocket-able". If you don't have a caliper yet, it can be useful. It reads out inch or mm at the push of a button.

I have often made a black felt marker dot on aluminum, then gently scratched an X onto it in a precise spot with the steel caliper tips (a professinal machinist would cringe, but the caliper tips are just fine). I place a dent into the center of the X with a sharp pokey-device made for that ("sharp pokey device" is a technical term I learned from an engineer in the aerospace industry), and the dent keeps the small pilot drill bit from wandering.

I use a 3/16" pilot, as its the smallest one I found with three flats on the shank. Drill slow, stop to clear shavings often, and use lubricant (insert joke here). Once the pilot hole is complete, a larger bit can finish the job in the precise spot you wanted a large hole.

Image
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby spinningmagnets » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:01 pm

Recieved a link to an electric rear-wheel friction-drive with separate motor and roller from 1899 by John Schnepf, (So I'm only 111 years late to the game. Thanks for the pic, Roni). I notice it uses an off-the-shelf concave pulley wheel as the roller (recently suggested by paultrafalgar viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9652&start=90#p183070).

More early electric bicycle patents here: http://www.electric-bicycle-guide.com/electric-bicycle-history.html

I suspect the dotted blank sections would contain two small DC motors.

Image

Image
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Re: Spinningmagnets' RC Friction-Drive Build-log

Postby recumpence » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:09 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:Found an electric rear-wheel friction-drive with separate motor and roller from 1899 by John Schnepf, (So I'm only 111 years late to the game. Thanks for the pic, Roni). I notice it uses an off-the-shelf concave pulley wheel as the roller (recently suggested by paultrafalgar http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 90#p183070).

Image

Image


There is one issue with using a curved roller like that;

You will have significant scrub because the roller and wheel have reversed radiuses contacting each other.

It is shockingly similar to our modern systems, though. :)

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