Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:55 pm

I must have about 6-8 different physical varients of the Brain Box now. :roll: Latest varients are both non-SD versions. One with a 8x2LCD with uC all in the same enclosure, but with an additional momentary button on the side. Thinking was to use it for all the display options, and leave the throttle to just be a throttle. This will make swapping to an analog throttle much easier. It also frees up some much needed memory to implement a few things, and make a switch to a 16x2 LCDLCD easy.

Other varient has no display. So only a throttle cable (and possibly wheel sensor) runs up to the front. Very minimalist.

In other news .......

friction_drive_plus_hub_wtf.jpg
friction_drive_plus_hub_wtf.jpg (134.77 KiB) Viewed 1107 times


:D
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby gtadmin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:38 am

Hi Adrian, whose bike?

If you want to build your brain-box with all the trimmings but run out of memory, an additional µC could be used (they're cheap enough in the Nano version). That would enable a more modular approach to the various versions, yes?

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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:15 am

The bike is mine. It's my hub motor dual suspension bike. :D

Really not keen on having to wire up more stuff so doubt I would ever go to a second uC. Hopefully when I get time to clean up the code, space may not be an issue. Adding the second button may actually simplify the code too since it is easier to differentiate what button presses mean.

[EDIT: Fixed typo]
Last edited by adrian_sm on Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby gtadmin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:32 am

Fair enough, it was a thought.

How do you mix the two motors? Hubbie to take off and friction for cruising?
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:17 am

Nah. :lol: actual plan is a poor mans dyno. It will allow me to compare motors more accurately.

I was thinking of using the controllers regen and a spare BrainBox to do data logging. I haven't had a real chance to play with it yet, but I was surprised at how much power it took just to spin the wheel with no regen. So the plan of just measuring the current going back in to the battery to be a real measure of the power output of the Commuter Booster appears to be flawed. Ah well.
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby gtadmin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:47 am

:o Not everything works first time, and some things never work, but you have to try ideas else you stagnate.

Going back to your memory problems for a bit (as in the µC's, not your's), have you gone through the code and used the smallest variable types possible (bytes instead of ints, ints instead of longs, longs instead of floats / doubles etc) where applicable? Just asking.
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:02 am

Yep. More of an issue with SRAM space, which is more challenging to track down since it heavily depends on the SD library, which I can't be bothered further optimising code I am not familiar with. I was also at the limit of program memory at the same time so that made things fun to debug. It is all working now even with SD data logging, but doesn't leave room to try out new things without running in to problems.

So for now I'll branch the code, drop SD support, and streamline the more fundamental features. Then I can bring back the SD code later.
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby Juan Carlos » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:51 am

:D
Hello Adrian and company, I have read the entire forum, and I have to give enorabuena for your work and have encouraged me to make one.

As Hobby King is exhausted Brushless motor Outrunner HXT 63-74 200kV, I thought this Pener Aerodrive Pener SK3 - 6374-149kv Outrunner Brushless Motor
[urlhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18184__Turnigy_Aerodrive_SK3_6374_149kv_Brushless_Outrunner_Motor.html][/url]

But I worry about the axis of 8 mm for a single arm.

Also I think this esc HobbyKing Red Brick 125A ESC [urlhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18014__HobbyKing_Red_Brick_125A_ESC_Opto_.html][/url] would be good, as would be over sizing to avoid high temperatures, two cosets is copletaria how are you in pararelo batteries ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P 30C
[urlhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16228__ZIPPY_Flightmax_8000mAh_6S1P_30C_.html][/url] how are you and I want a range of about 40 50 km, and other material that you advised.

Thanks again for your work and do while waiting for your answer.

Note I apologize for writing since I made ​​the translation with Google
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:00 pm

Welcome Juan,

Thanks for the kind words.

I have been testing a wide range of motors recently, including some of the SK3 motors. The 8mm shaft should be fine as the skirt bearing takes a lot of the load off this shaft.

Here are some of my notes from the SK3's
- bearing quality was good
- fit and finish good
- relatively low levels of flux leakage
- motor diameters smaller than the old orange turnigy 6374-200kv
- a bit noisier on the bike with higher frequency tone than the old orange turnigy 6374-200kv
- cooling holes in the can may be an issue, as they closely align to the edge of the tire on the commuter booster, therefore may allow sand etc picked up by the tyre to enter motor.
- greater radial clearance is required on motor swing arm to accomodate shaft retention clip of SK3 motor

The 149kv motor on 6s LiPo should have a no load speed of ~40kph, so you will end up cruise on the flat at ~35-36kph. If you want faster go for the 168 or 192kV motors.

As for the ESC you linked to, I have never tried it so can't comment. But generally picking one that can accomodate high voltage & higher current than you expect is always a good.

General comment on selecting an ESC based on my preferences are:
- I like them with an on/off switch, so I don't have to disonnect the main battery cables very often. That is the main reason I like the Turnigy Brushless ESC 85A w/ 5A SBEC.
- the friction drives prefer to have the throttle slowly increased. Some ESCs have a soft start option that can do this well. Others don't. I have ended up designing and manufacturing a custom throttle interface/bike computer that does this among other things. But a simple solution is to use one of these which can adjsut the ramp up speeds, Turnigy 3 Channel Servo Speed/Direction Regulator
- the ESCs also don't like low speed, high torque situations, so be careful use the drive a slower than walking pace.

Finally the friction drives in general work best when power is restricted, so either be careful with how you apply the throttle, or expect lower efficiency or tire wear.

Batteries capacity. This really depends on a lot of factors. I personally do most of my riding with the commuter booster on a good road bike, and like to pedal. I generally cruise at ~40kph, and usually see efficiencies of 6-7wh/km. But if I didn't pedal much and was on a mountain bike, I would likely see up around 10-12wh/km for similar speeds. So unless you like to pedal quite a bit, and don't mind running your battery flat every ride, I would recommend a larger battery if you plan on 50km trips regularly.

Another battery consideration is how you plan to put them on the bike. I actually prefer to use four 5s5Ah batteries, as I can fit them in my Topeak Aerowedge saddle bag. But I can only fit three 6s5Ah batteries in the same bag, which does not give me as much battery capacity. This means I typically would use the 190-200kv 63mm motor to get the speed I like, where as if I had the 6s batteries I could probably use a 170kv 63mm motor instead. So make sure you have a plan on how you will mount the batteries to your bike before you buy them.

All the best,

Adrian.

P.S. I will be posting soon about my next manufacturing run of both Commuter Booster Drives, and my new electronics interface that will soon be for sale. :D
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby cwah » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:16 pm

Hello Adrian,

Do you know if you kit would fit a small bike such as a Brompton (need a bike easy to carry on the train) and be able to reach 50 km/h?

Thanks a lot
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:23 pm

Not out of the box.

Image

It looks like there would be enough room in or below the rear triangle, but would require a custom designed pivot block.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:51 am

You got me curious about the brompton and how hard it would be to mount my drive on it so I searched a bit more.

Hmm and looking a bit closer it looks like the space I would usually mount my drive is occupied when the bike is folded. So it may rule out mounting a Commuter Booster in there. :( Unless you feel like carrying an allen key and taking the drive on and off each time you fold.

Image

Oh, and here is a better pic of the rear triangle. It is obviously missing the seat tube that I usually mount the drive too. Hence the need for a custom solution...

Image

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby cwah » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:58 pm

Would that work better with a Dahon Uno?
Image

Or I can just unmount the kit everytime I fold the bike if it's fast enough. (I mean no more than 1 mn)

Actually, the bike doesn't matter because I haven't purchased it yet. I could get any as long as I can easily carry it on bus/train and that goes fast.

Looking forward to buy your kit Adrian!! :lol:
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:10 pm

Ah cool. Then you might be interested in ferias77's build. He made a drive based on my design and got it all setup on this little folder.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31457&p=487824
Image

Last I heard he was having a few issues with drive engagement, but since this is not one of my drives I am not totally sure what the issue was. You can see the discussion on his thread.

I know Kepler also has one of his eBoost drives on a folder that works a treat. His design mounts the whole drive unit on the seat post (rather than the seat tube like mine), and is designed more around quick installation/removal so that might be a better option depending on the bike you end up with.

P.S. I am getting ready now to put the beta drive units up for sale. I am just waiting on receiving some parts, and cleaning up the firmware based on all the testing we have been conducting over the last few months. I will post something more official soon. Sorry to everyone that has been wanting a drive but I would really prefer to get this all debugged and right before I make people give me their hard earned money for it.
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Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby cwah » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:58 pm

Thanks for your answer Adrian.

This is a very nice build from Ferias. Definitely worth considering if the tyres don't die so quickly and if the controller was still alive. Waiting to know what was the problem.

I also was under the impression that friction drives are quite loud:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61sM9qov ... re=related

If we have to compare with Direct drive motors, how much louder it is? (I just want to be as stealthy as possible :lol: )
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:04 pm

If you want a real quiet drive, go for a hub motor. Direct drive hubs tend to be the quietest, then geared hubs, then RC drives. This is just from my personal experience. I am sure others will have different opinions. But the hubs are obviously a bit heavier for similar power.

RC drives have less mass to dampen out the noise, and run higher RPMs which means higher frequency noise which the human ear perceives as loader. Exactly how load they are depends on a heap of things, which motor, what load the motor is under, how it is mechanically couple to the frame, ESC settings... and so on.

But picking a good motor, and reducing the power goes a long way to keeping the sound at a reasonable level. It is one of the reasons I have spent so much time recently developing my throttle interface/bike computer/brain box thing. It nicely controls the power to the motor, which keeps it quiet. Not as quiet as a hub motor, but quiet enough for me.
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Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby cwah » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:49 pm

As long as it's not too noisy, that should be fine. By the way, have you tried to surround your kit with sound isolation foam? Not sure if that is useful at all.

Also, from my other post I tried to compare the efficiency of the commuter booster to a hub motor, here is what I found:

If I reach 30 mph (50kph) on an Ezee 20" I need 90V:
Image
http://ebike.ca/simulator/

For that, I'll consume around 30 Wh/km


Here is a comparison to a RC motor (friction drive):
Image
https://sites.google.com/site/commuterb ... erformance

I'll consume around 15 Wh/km

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but can we say that the commuter booster is 2 times more efficient than bike motors?
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:16 pm

No it is not more efficient,the setups/assumptions are different.

The ebikes.ca calculator is pessimistic assuming no pedaling, and a crappy bike. The CB stats were based on an efficient road bike and used as an assist.

My system gets the efficiencies from:
- totally disengaging and having no drag when not in use
- minimizing additional weight
- allowing the use of high quality and efficient bikes components like low rolling resistant tires, aero bike, light weight components, etc.

So it is not really comparing apples to apples. If you did have the same assumptions the efficIency numbers would look very similar. There is nothing magic about my drive that breaks the fundamental laws of physics. :D

As for sound deadening, no I haven't tried that and i would bet it wouldnt work.

If you want an ultimately quiet drive don't get one based on a small RC motor. Get a hub motor.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby ermoustruo » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Hi, I added a fan to the motor shaft and this is not heated anything.
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:50 pm

Hi and welcome to ES.

Have you got more details? Did you measure motor temperatures before and after the fan being added?

I have always thought they would not work very well as they will provide no cooling to the motor coils on the other side of the motor. But I have never tried it so would love to gear your experiences.

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby ermoustruo » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:05 pm

Tomorrow I engine photos in detail and explain how I made the fan.
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:20 pm

Great. Where are you from. I am assuming english isn't your first language.

BTW it doesn't look like you have a counterbalance spring to help lift the motor, or dead stops to limit the travel of the swing arm. These are very important to how the drive works. Hope you have something in mind to perform these functions.

And good work on making your own. I love seeing people build them.

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby ermoustruo » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:57 pm

Sorry for my english. I´m spanish.

Respect of your questions, before I make the fan, the motor is been hot when I climb the mountain, after the add the fan the bike don´t hot. It´s cold
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby adrian_sm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:18 pm

Fantastic. Thanks for the data. One I am done releasing the Beta Commuter Boosters I will have to look into fans a bit more.

I have some of the new SK3 motors from hobbyking some of them have built in fans. But I have not had a chance to gather real temp data yet (been too busy programming) The internal fans also make it a bit harder to mount the temperature sensor in the motor windings as you have to get past the fan. :?
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
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Re: Commuter Booster - <1kg Friction Drive

Postby ermoustruo » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:34 pm

you have to adapt the fan into the motor.

I buy the fan in Hobbyking.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=4846

the absorber to buy in ebay:

http://www.ebay.es/itm/400249824126?ssP ... 1497.l2649

the absorber has two functions. First the motor to near the wheel and when the motor to stops it is brake
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